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OpenMW 0.46.0 Video Complaining Thread
Posted: 27 May 2020, 03:38
by MortimerMcMire
a release video should never hold up a release lol
wasn't this an issue before where everyone sat on their hands waiting for the last guy to release his vids
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 06:15
by akortunov
MortimerMcMire wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 03:38
wasn't this an issue before where everyone sat on their hands waiting for the last guy to release his vids
It was an issue with 0.45, where RC phase took about half of year because of missing videos.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 08:53
by Atahualpa
MortimerMcMire wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 03:38
a release video should never hold up a release lol
Since the release videos raise a lot of attention amongst users outside of our forum bubble (and sometimes even magazines and other sites), I beg to differ. Also keep in mind that video production is really time-consuming - even more so for a single person - and can only start after the release phase has begun. Delays happen and, depending on the amount of solved issues, are to be expected. In the meantime, our developers continue to work on OpenMW regardless of pending releases.
I guess you have to use the current RC builds or switch to the nightlies if you cannot wait for 0.46.0 any longer.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 11:42
by akortunov
Atahualpa wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 08:53
and can only start after the release phase has begun.
I disagree with that. The list of most important changes in the new release is more-or-less complete already in early development stages (because we avoid to merge invasive things just before we start RC phase). For example, 0.46 release has about 280 closed tickets more than for two months, and our late efforts for 0.46 were regression fixes. So once we start an RC phase, a draft of release videos already should be present, so these videos can be finished without large additional efforts. Otherwise we can get a situation when a person who is supposed to make videos just has no time to make them in a couple of weeks (especially if a new release is large, as 0.45 or 0.46). And in this case we have two bad choices - either delay release for unknown amount of time (for a half of year, for example) or release new version without videos at all. Both options are quite bad for PR.
And a delay can be worse for PR than no video at all:
1. If a person "outside of forum bubble" is not aware about release delay due to lack of video, he may consider project to be dead.
2. If he is aware about it, he can still consider it dead because the whole team can not make a video for 1.5 years, which any streamer from YouTube can make for a couple of weeks.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 12:21
by Atahualpa
I get the feeling that we had that discussion before. Once or twice or thrice...
@akortunov:
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Spoiler: Show
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I'm not saying that video production should always last half a year and you know that. You also know the reasons for the 0.45.0 delay and you know that for 0.46.0 johnnyhostile (and davidcernat) volunteered for video production because I wasn't available for that release.
You're right, sighting the solved issues and putting together a vague concept and some raw footage of the video can be done before we close a milestone. That really facilitated video production in OpenMW's earlier stages, when releases often contained several distinct features which were easily visible for players. But the times of big and shiny new features are gone. Nowadays, lots of bug fixes and minor features are the norm; and digging through them and understanding their relevance for a potential video is not trivial. From my experience, it usually takes two full (!) weeks to produce videos for a single release, anything between 60 and 100+ hours. That is if it can be done in one go, minimising time losses. Doing the actual video production in chunks over several months could easily double the amount of time needed, which is not feasible at all.
Then again, people could always hire a professional video producer, pay them, and get some high-quality videos in a short time period.
akortunov wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 11:42
1. If a person "outside of forum bubble" is not aware about release delay due to lack of video, he may consider project to be dead.
That can be solved by (a) answering "Is OpenMW dead?" comments on YouTube (which some of us already do) and (b) more frequent news posts on our homepage, reddit, twitter, and whatever social platforms people use. We could also do intermediate "We are still alive!" videos although I'm not sure that would be worth it.
akortunov wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 11:42
2. If he is aware about it, he can still consider it dead because the whole team can not make a video for 1.5 years, which any streamer from YouTube can make for a couple of weeks.
Wtf?
Anyway, could we please stop that discussion here? It is in no way constructive and has no relevance for the current release.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 12:51
by AnyOldName3
It's not common to see videos made to the standard of an OpenMW release video come from the same person within a couple of weeks, and it's always from YouTube-as-a-day-job channels. It's not a fair comparison at all.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 12:56
by akortunov
Atahualpa wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 12:21
Anyway, could we please stop that discussion here? It is in no way constructive and has no relevance for the current release.
Well, you started this discussion by your "Also keep in mind that video production is really time-consuming - even more so for a single person - and can only start after the release phase has begun." sentence. I just pointed out that there is a flaw in such logic - the video production either is really time consuming, so videos should be
more-or-less ready when we start an RC (since there is no enough time to produce it during RC, at least without pressure for producer), or it does not require much efforts and can be started and finished during RC phase.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:23
by Vixizen
Maybe it is time to change the format of these videos? As was stated earlier -times of big features added in a single release are long gone. Do we need every bug fix shown? I think these videos could be a more visually pleasing change log or only very significant features/fixes could be presented. This way the video should not hinder the actual release.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:44
by AnyOldName3
akortunov wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 12:56
Atahualpa wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 12:21
Anyway, could we please stop that discussion here? It is in no way constructive and has no relevance for the current release.
Well, you started this discussion by your "Also keep in mind that video production is really time-consuming - even more so for a single person - and can only start after the release phase has begun." sentence. I just pointed out that there is a flaw in such logic - the video production either is really time consuming, so videos should be
more-or-less ready when we start an RC (since there is no enough time to produce it during RC, at least without pressure for producer), or it does not require much efforts and can be started and finished during RC phase.
But neither of those things are true. It
does take long time, and
does require a lot of work that can't be shifted pre-RC. There's no logical flaw. It was a statement of fact.
Re: OpenMW 0.46.0
Posted: 27 May 2020, 15:45
by Atahualpa
akortunov wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 12:56
Well, you started this discussion by your "Also keep in mind that video production is really time-consuming - even more so for a single person - and can only start after the release phase has begun." sentence.
My initial post was directed at MortimerMcMire. Whether he was serious or just trolling, I don't know.
However, my wording was unclear: The vague term "video production" referred to the full-on production block necessary to create these videos in a reasonable time frame. My bad.
akortunov wrote: ↑27 May 2020, 12:56
I just pointed out that there is a flaw in such logic - the video production either is really time consuming, so videos should be
more-or-less ready when we start an RC (since there is no enough time to produce it during RC, at least without pressure for producer), or it does not require much efforts and can be started and finished during RC phase.
As I mentioned above, the production block is necessary (at least for me), so there's always pressure for the video producer. That's why we usually time our releases in such a way that the video producer can plan their work schedule accordingly and has a little head start. But that comes down to good communication between team members which, admittedly, sometimes is lacking. There are also other actions we can take, e.g., providing an easy-to-understand change log alongside the usual technical one.
If you insist, we can discuss this (again?) as a team in a seperate topic.