Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

General discussion regarding the OpenMW project.
For technical support, please use the Support subforum.
User avatar
PeterBitt
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Mar 2013, 18:49
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by PeterBitt » 15 Sep 2016, 10:04

Thanks for the little semantics lesson. While picking apart every word and phrase you might have lost sight of the situation tho? I am surprised anyone could doubt the 'dumbing down' of TES after MW (yes actually after Daggerfall but thats hardly a comparison, given the shift to a fully 3d modelled game).

  • Arrows etc with no weight
    Cant drop quest items
    Quest markers everywhere
    "puzzles"
    Artifacts have low value
    No layered clothing/armor
    Less armor parts
    Much less spells
    Failsafe and boring combat
    Skill & Attributes system destoryed for more accessability
    Way less skills and attributes (which made perfect sense in MW, compared to Daggerfall)
    Beast races have no unique body, can wear boots
    Standing stones take away the decissions making in chargen
    Autoheal
    Fatigue bar much less important than MW but better than OB
    No one hit deaths at low levels
    Player can casually kill wolves, soldiers, etc at level one
    Very little dialogue and dialogue decissions
    No fog of war on the map
    Quick travel
    Only one disease type, so only one cure
    Scaled enemies
    Unkillable NPCs
    No failure at magic, crafting, etc
    No skill requirements for factions
    Less joinable factions
    Companions which can not die

That has to be enough for now, but there is plenty more to discover I am sure. I only played around 20 hours, so I guess it will become hugely complex later on? The UESP wiki comparison page doesnt state so anyways: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Differences_Be ... and_Skyrim

Oblivion and Skyrim sure as hell got dumbed down heavily and it doesnt require much creativity to think of a reason for that.

Biboran
Posts: 84
Joined: 03 Feb 2016, 12:50

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Biboran » 15 Sep 2016, 12:47

'dumbing down' TES
Not only TES. See what they do in Fallout 4. This is much more dumb then even skyrim. I heared jokes about TES6 will has no dialogs, has no inventary and only fireball as magic etc. This is sad :(
dagerfall
From daggerfall you can note pattern: bethsda do a lot features they fail to finish, in next game they don't do that features but try add new, that popular in that time, but they fail in some other features too, and in next game they don't do that features etc.

Chris
Posts: 1559
Joined: 04 Sep 2011, 08:33

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Chris » 15 Sep 2016, 19:43

PeterBitt wrote:Arrows etc with no weight
How is this "dumbing down"? Again, what do you mean by "dumbing down"? "I don't like it" doesn't mean "dumbed down".
Cant drop quest items
Fatigue bar much less important than MW but better than OB
Scaled enemies
Due to player complaints about Morrowind. Dropping/selling an item that the player had no idea was needed, only to find out dozens of hours later it was important and not remembering where they left it. Fatigue running out too quickly (especially because of running, due to the walking speed being so low) so you were constantly out whenever running into an enemy. And the game having no difficulty as you get high level. All complains by players during Morrowind, which these changes tried to address.
Quest markers everywhere
Unkillable NPCs
Companions which can not die
Already explained by Radiant AI creating mobile NPCs. Quest markers are also a result of player complaints of bad, hard to follow directions, in addition to the now-non-stationary NPCs. When NPCs can move around the world on their own, and automatically interact with other systems like combat, being able to find them and making sure they're not inadvertently killed is a necessity.
"puzzles"
TES has never had good puzzles. It's not a puzzle game. The fact that they have stupidly simple puzzles is something I see as an unnecessary addition.
Artifacts have low value
Everything has lower value in later games. That doesn't make it dumbed down, it simply alters the economic system.
No layered clothing/armor
How is that mechanically significant?
Less armor parts
Due to the increase in fidelity, it's a lot harder to create multi-piece armors that don't exhibit problems like severe clipping. It's not impossible, but it isn't without cost either, and that cost results in reducing the number of pieces for a full set.
Much less spells
Some of them removed to avoid breaking the game, some removed because they hadn't been redesigned for a new system. Can they have more? Sure, there's a lot of things they can do, but they only have so much time to do it, and with Skyrim they simply didn't focus that much on magic (likely in part because they were trying to go for a setting that had less magic in general).
Failsafe and boring combat
Skill & Attributes system destoryed for more accessability
I would claim these have been improved. Combat is much more enjoyable in Oblivion and Skyrim, the attribute system was horribly broken (mainly serving as a feedback loop into skills), and Skyrim actually has a very good Skill system design (its execution could certainly stand to improve, a lot, but its nice to see them try alternatives).
Way less skills and attributes (which made perfect sense in MW, compared to Daggerfall)
Of course, when Morrowind does something it "made perfect sense", but when Oblivion or Skyrim do the same thing, it's "dumbing down". Morrowind had its fair share of broken, useless, and/or unnecessarily specific skills as well. In fact, I would say the design of Skyrim's system was a clear improvement over Morrowind's system, since it would allow using perks to create nuance within a skill, rather than having to split it and devote whole skills to them (where not everything needs or should have a full 0...100 scale, to say nothing of branching possibilities).
Beast races have no unique body, can wear boots
Just like in Daggerfall and Arena, where they can wear boots and helmets, and have normal feet. Morrowind originally wasn't going to have playable beast races, which is why they were given a unique body in the first place. When people complained about that upon learning of it, they decided to change it and make them playable, but they didn't have time to redesign the bodies, or handle separate boot and helmet models for beast races. If the beast races were designed to be playable from the start, I guarantee you Morrowind wouldn't have done this either. And let's not overlook the fact that Oblivion had to add in a new morphing system to helmets, so they would work properly on beast races who could now wear them, so it's not like they were just being lazy.
Standing stones take away the decissions making in chargen
Which as I explained is simply a different design philosophy. Building your character through play rather than a pre-game check-list. Personally, I'd like to see even the standing stones go away, so you don't get free buffs.
No one hit deaths at low levels
Something which shows their improving competency. Instant, unavoidable deaths are very bad game design. Death should be a punishment for not doing well, not for a "surprise, gotcha!" moment. Balancing enemy difficulty in an open world so that you don't hit unwarranted spikes in difficulty, while also trying to keep the game engaging, it pretty difficult. But if their work with Fallout 4's hardcore mode is any indication, they're getting a handle on it.
Very little dialogue and dialogue decissions
Less over all dialog, but the dialog that is there is better written and more relevant to the world and player. When you have NPCs all over the world same the same exact thing for the same exact question/topic, it can do with a rethink.
No fog of war on the map
What? Yes there is.
[url=http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/eld ... 1230094126
Quick travel
Completely optional. Unlike other games, like The Witcher 3 where you do actually have to use fast travel to get to certain places, in TES you have never had to use fast travel since Daggerfall. In Skyrim and Fallout 4, they even added back in-world travel methods too (carriages, vertibirds, etc), despite them being redundant.
Only one disease type, so only one cure
Considering Morrowind is the only TES game to have more than one disease type, and the non-common types were specific to the story being told (Blight and Corprus, which came from Dagoth Ur who you were trying to stop), I don't see that as being a problem.
No failure at magic, crafting, etc
Because it's so fun and engaging to randomly fail to do an action.</sarcasm> Particular when that action is what you do to play the game, it's not good design to base whether you do it or not on a dice roll.
No skill requirements for factions
Because the factions with Oblivion and Skyrim are more story-focused, rather than job-focused. Blocking advancement through the guild questline because you need to have specific skill numbers would really restrict the kinds of questlines they can do, and ultimately would make them worse off. It'd be a more fair assessment to complain that you don't need to use the skills a given faction relies on to get through its quests, but that just goes to point out how open the games are in letting you play how you want (which is very important to TES).
Less joinable factions
But more in-depth factions. They actually have stories, plots, and are filled with characterized NPCs, rather than being filled with mostly generic NPCs with generic dialog while handing out odd jobs.

And again, I'm not saying you should like these changes, or that the changes necessarily make the game better. They're simply different design decisions made due to a multitude of factors (ranging from player complaints, to simply wanting to try something new), not a "dumbing down" of the series.

Some good videos to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHa8c2EPFNY

User avatar
Husaco
Posts: 25
Joined: 07 Aug 2011, 11:54
Location: Australia

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Husaco » 15 Sep 2016, 21:31

Chris wrote:snip
“Dumbing down” is a prejudiced term (probably comparable to “streamlining” and plaining “simplification)”, but it's undeniable that many of these changes represent a simplification to the game mechanics. I agree with some of your assessments and disagree with others, but fundamentally the system is shifting more away from class RPG mechanics dice rolls and a page of stats and such to a more action-y type deal. While I can't say I hate newer Bethesda games, they really don't have the same feel to me as their older games and I can perfectly understand why people feel alienated by their design choices.

MacKom
Posts: 43
Joined: 26 Mar 2013, 13:00

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by MacKom » 15 Sep 2016, 21:45

Anyways, back to the topic...

I used to watch his videos. Pomopus is an adequate description. His knowledge of the lore is admireable, his dismissal of lore evolution and a strong "purist" stance - not so much. Also, his videos on why certain games suck and what would be the perfect TES VI...ugh. :roll:

I looked past that tho. It wasn`t untill I attended his live stream and was jumped on in the chat after asking a legitimate lore question (I didn`t know and wanted to learn) that I had enough. Not worth the time. Wish the gentleman in question all the best in the future. I`ll be doing/watching other things.

Chris
Posts: 1559
Joined: 04 Sep 2011, 08:33

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Chris » 15 Sep 2016, 22:06

Husaco wrote:While I can't say I hate newer Bethesda games, they really don't have the same feel to me as their older games and I can perfectly understand why people feel alienated by their design choices.
I can too. I don't deny that the TES games are changing, shifting focus from some aspects to others. My personal favorite of the series is Daggerfall, and really wish to see bring back many of the philosophies they had when making that one that they haven't really done since.

But the problem when you're talking about things like simplification and such, you can't just look at one aspect, or even a bunch of aspects, and make a conclusion based on that. You have to look at the game as a whole, because while some things may be simplified, they could very well be putting more work into other things, and some of those things may not be obvious or visible to a player who wasn't involved in the development process. Doesn't mean it's always an improvement, but yeah.

CMAugust
Posts: 174
Joined: 10 Jan 2016, 00:13

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by CMAugust » 16 Sep 2016, 08:19

Chris wrote:I don't deny that the TES games are changing, shifting focus from some aspects to others. My personal favorite of the series is Daggerfall, and really wish to see bring back many of the philosophies they had when making that one that they haven't really done since.
I'm curious - what kind of philosophies from Daggerfall do you have in mind?

812 hours on Steam alone is a testament to how much I've enjoyed Skyrim, but there is definitely something that keeps me interested in this old game from 2002 - along with the OpenMW project itself. Morrowind provides enjoyment and delight in ways its successor does not, and the reverse is also true. In that sense, I consider Skyrim both dumbed down and smartened up, depending on which aspect of the game is being discussed.

Was it a net improvement? Well, it certainly helped the sales - and its accessibility is what finally got me deep into The Elder Scrolls series. But there is a lot I miss about the way Morrowind did things, and one of the outcomes I hope we see spring from OpenMW is a synergy between new systems and old - and not just updating the graphics. ;)

User avatar
PeterBitt
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Mar 2013, 18:49
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by PeterBitt » 16 Sep 2016, 11:24

edit; Forget it. I know discussions on the internet are worthless and just remembered that.

User avatar
psi29a
Posts: 4640
Joined: 29 Sep 2011, 10:13
Location: Belgium
Gitlab profile: https://gitlab.com/psi29a/
Contact:

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by psi29a » 16 Sep 2016, 12:26

If there is nothing more to say, then let it be that. ;)

I think it is pretty neat that someone mentioned OpenMW.

vtastek
Posts: 3
Joined: 16 Sep 2016, 12:19

Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by vtastek » 16 Sep 2016, 13:22

I don't really care about that list except one point. Those others are small things compared to the big picture.

You can play the entirety of Oblivion/Skyrim without knowing the English language. If that is not an indicator for dumbing down for an RPG, I don't know what is.

On roleplaying aspects, my problems are:
questing vs. mission structure,
lack of a disposition system that is interdynamic.

First point has to do with directions, interestingly. Morrowind as a game, only told you the directions and that was coming from NPCs. You got other information from NPCs and the world. You were on your own and combined with disposition system, the two points I mentioned created a synergy of non-linearity. Making your own path in the world, in more than one level.

In the new system, the summarization(read: dumbing down) makes it so the game tells you what to do. Extensive linearity(scripted events, lack of dialog choices, essentials etc.) and lack of disposition system make it a static world that is telling a story in one way. Result is a very poor roleplaying experience. Read non-existent.

I would love to see a proper solution so player autonomy/agency is preserved without a need for directions as I think directions are not feasible(in its static way). This is not a simple problem but it needs to be fixed.

At this point, there is not much difference in TES from GTA or Far Cry. It is the setting and story heaviness that makes it resemble an RPG.

I don't subscribe to the general notion of "good story/writing heavy" == RPG, "bad story/lite writing" == FPS campaign. If it is linear, then it is linear or maybe multi-linear. I want more questing structure, social systems, dynamism in place. I can roleplay, by myself, in any game.

Also, hello world!
Spoiler: Show

Post Reply