Ashes of Apocalypse

Everything about development and the OpenMW source code.
Loriel
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Joined: 28 May 2015, 00:44

Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Loriel » 11 Jul 2015, 11:38

Envy123 wrote:I give permission for you guys to convert it over to OpenMW and for modders to add new features or expand on it. In the latter case, I would like to be informed about it because I want to play those mods, should they come into fruition. :)

I'm fine with the characters and factions being used for personal use, just not for commercial use.

So, essentially, I agree to the By-SA license except for the "even commercially" part.
If you aren't happy with commercial use, then one of the non-commercial creative commons licences would probably be better - see https://creativecommons.org/licenses/ for a summary.

As I understand it, all the "NC" licences require attribution and forbid commercial use of your work:
CC by NC allows others to make derivatives of your work, but their licences must also require attribution and forbid commercial use
CC by NC SA allows others to make derivatives of your work, but their licences must be on identical terms
CC by NC ND allows others to use and distribute your work, but not to change it.

If you want to enforce notification when somebody changes your work, then perhaps you should use the restrictive CC by NC ND (which forbids that) with an accompanying note that you would probably be willing to re-licence on request.

Loriel

Envy123
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Joined: 23 Aug 2013, 16:26

Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Envy123 » 11 Jul 2015, 13:35

Loriel wrote:
Envy123 wrote:I give permission for you guys to convert it over to OpenMW and for modders to add new features or expand on it. In the latter case, I would like to be informed about it because I want to play those mods, should they come into fruition. :)

I'm fine with the characters and factions being used for personal use, just not for commercial use.

So, essentially, I agree to the By-SA license except for the "even commercially" part.
If you aren't happy with commercial use, then one of the non-commercial creative commons licences would probably be better - see https://creativecommons.org/licenses/ for a summary.

As I understand it, all the "NC" licences require attribution and forbid commercial use of your work:
CC by NC allows others to make derivatives of your work, but their licences must also require attribution and forbid commercial use
CC by NC SA allows others to make derivatives of your work, but their licences must be on identical terms
CC by NC ND allows others to use and distribute your work, but not to change it.

If you want to enforce notification when somebody changes your work, then perhaps you should use the restrictive CC by NC ND (which forbids that) with an accompanying note that you would probably be willing to re-licence on request.

Loriel
I've read the licenses and I'm willing to license DR2 with the CC BY-NC-SA license. People can freely mod it, as long as they give me credit and release it under the same license and they do not use it commercially.

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psi29a
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Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by psi29a » 11 Jul 2015, 13:53

Envy123 wrote:I've read the licenses and I'm willing to license DR2 with the CC BY-NC-SA license. People can freely mod it, as long as they give me credit and release it under the same license and they do not use it commercially.
That is great you're willing to do that, but that isn't going to work. I want this to go into Debian (and not just Debian, but other distros and *BSDs), so that OpenMW becomes a first-class citizen. Since Debian sells CD/DVDs to cover costs, that means all software has to comform to the DFSG[1]. This means that data that is covered by CC-BY-NC-SA are not allowed, as it would be sold, even though Debian is a non-profit organization, to cover their costs.

As you can see, we are caught in a difficult situation. How do we please everyone? ;)

I'm OK with either dropping or replacing your Characters, though this will be more work. Now the question is, what counts as a Character? Is that just the name, or does that mean combination of assets that make up the Character?

Same with Factions, we can change the names for example. Or do you have something else in mind?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Fr ... Guidelines

Envy123
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Joined: 23 Aug 2013, 16:26

Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Envy123 » 11 Jul 2015, 14:07

psi29a wrote:
Envy123 wrote:I've read the licenses and I'm willing to license DR2 with the CC BY-NC-SA license. People can freely mod it, as long as they give me credit and release it under the same license and they do not use it commercially.
That is great you're willing to do that, but that isn't going to work. I want this to go into Debian (and not just Debian, but other distros and *BSDs), so that OpenMW becomes a first-class citizen. Since Debian sells CD/DVDs to cover costs, that means all software has to comform to the DFSG[1]. This means that data that is covered by CC-BY-NC-SA are not allowed, as it would be sold, even though Debian is a non-profit organization, to cover their costs.

As you can see, we are caught in a difficult situation. How do we please everyone? ;)

I'm OK with either dropping or replacing your Characters, though this will be more work. Now the question is, what counts as a Character? Is that just the name, or does that mean combination of assets that make up the Character?

Same with Factions, we can change the names for example. Or do you have something else in mind?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Fr ... Guidelines
If people would want to use my work for commercial purposes, they would need to ask permission from me and I would discuss royalties with them. Would that be fine?

Because I am quite stringent when it comes to my IP, and I'm pretty sure that at least some of the credited authors are like that as well. I've watched the paid mods thing rise and become buried a few days afterwards.

I'm perfectly fine with people modding DR2, heck I'll encourage it. The fine line is the making money bit, unless I get some cut from the revenue.
Last edited by Envy123 on 11 Jul 2015, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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psi29a
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Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by psi29a » 11 Jul 2015, 14:14

Envy123 wrote:If people would want to use my work for commercial purposes, they would need to ask permission from me and I would discuss royalties with them. Would that be fine?
Sadly not, as per the DSFG:
The guidelines
  • Free redistribution.
  • Inclusion of source code.
  • Allowing for modifications and derived works.
  • Integrity of the author's source code (as a compromise).
  • No discrimination against persons or groups.
  • No discrimination against fields of endeavor, like commercial use.
  • The license needs to apply to all to whom the program is redistributed.
  • License must not be specific to a product.
  • License must not restrict other software.
:/

For example, OpenMW by definition can be sold no one here would see a single cent of that. We're OK with that. Some, like yourself are not.

That is why I'm wondering what the limits are and on what content in DR2 that we may be able to use with your permission that that follow the above guidelines with the CC-BY-SA.

Is is possible that we can incorporate your fixes, dialogs and quests?

Envy123
Posts: 45
Joined: 23 Aug 2013, 16:26

Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Envy123 » 11 Jul 2015, 14:26

psi29a wrote:
Envy123 wrote:If people would want to use my work for commercial purposes, they would need to ask permission from me and I would discuss royalties with them. Would that be fine?
Sadly not, as per the DSFG:
The guidelines
  • Free redistribution.
  • Inclusion of source code.
  • Allowing for modifications and derived works.
  • Integrity of the author's source code (as a compromise).
  • No discrimination against persons or groups.
  • No discrimination against fields of endeavor, like commercial use.
  • The license needs to apply to all to whom the program is redistributed.
  • License must not be specific to a product.
  • License must not restrict other software.
:/

For example, OpenMW by definition can be sold no one here would see a single cent of that. We're OK with that. Some, like yourself are not.

That is why I'm wondering what the limits are and on what content in DR2 that we may be able to use with your permission that that follow the above guidelines with the CC-BY-SA.

Is is possible that we can incorporate your fixes, dialogs and quests?
DR2 uses so many resources, and some of Emma's characters as well. I don't think that everyone would agree to their resources being used under CC-BY-SA.
Last edited by Envy123 on 11 Jul 2015, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

Loriel
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Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Loriel » 11 Jul 2015, 17:22

It appears to me that anything created using the Morrowind Construction Set, under the terms of Bethesda's Morrowind Licence, cannot be used commercially, unless Bethesda's permission is obtained:
The Package contains material for use with Bethesda Softworks' editor Product, titled The Elder Scrolls Construction Set(tm) (the "Editor") ...
All uses of the Editor and any materials created using the Editor (the "New Materials") are for Your own personal, non-commercial use solely in connection with the applicable Product(s), subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
You may not cause or permit the sale or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any New Materials without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of Bethesda Softworks.
Loriel

Envy123
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Joined: 23 Aug 2013, 16:26

Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Envy123 » 11 Jul 2015, 17:30

Loriel wrote:It appears to me that anything created using the Morrowind Construction Set, under the terms of Bethesda's Morrowind Licence, cannot be used commercially, unless Bethesda's permission is obtained:
The Package contains material for use with Bethesda Softworks' editor Product, titled The Elder Scrolls Construction Set(tm) (the "Editor") ...
All uses of the Editor and any materials created using the Editor (the "New Materials") are for Your own personal, non-commercial use solely in connection with the applicable Product(s), subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
You may not cause or permit the sale or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any New Materials without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of Bethesda Softworks.
Loriel
Interesting.

Now any commercial projects that I do on OpenMW would be only done in the OpenCS, but I made DR2 in the CS.

And Travis made AOA in the CS as well.

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psi29a
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Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by psi29a » 11 Jul 2015, 18:26

Envy123 wrote:And Travis made AOA in the CS as well.
All assets are copyright of the original author, that being Travis and he gave CC-BY-SA permission on everything in AoA that was his to do so.

Copyright law is very clear here: the rights belong to the author of the work not to the software/tools used to create the content. Bethesda doesn't have a leg to stand on in that regard. They can only enforce their copyrighted IP, that is all.

Any other claims are not legally enforceable.

For AoA I only plan on releasing omwgame and omwaddon, which are openmw-cs files and wouldn't work in Morrowind.

Loriel
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Re: Ashes of Apocalypse

Post by Loriel » 11 Jul 2015, 19:06

psi29a wrote:Copyright law is very clear here: the rights belong to the author of the work not to the software/tools used to create the content. Bethesda doesn't have a leg to stand on in that regard. They can only enforce their copyrighted IP, that is all.
I would agree that the copyright in the material belongs to the author, not to Bethesda. But I don't think Bethesda are claiming copyright in the material, they appear to be imposing a restriction on use of the Editor, which might be valid.
psi29a wrote:Any other claims are not legally enforceable.
Similar topics were discussed during the Skyrim paid mods uproar. I think the only way to reach a definitive answer is for a court to decide the case (probably multiple courts as laws vary between countries).
psi29a wrote:For AoA I only plan on releasing omwgame and omwaddon, which are openmw-cs files and wouldn't work in Morrowind.
There's two other sentences from the Bethesda Morrowind Licence that are potentially relevant (and demonstrate why using OpenCS is a good idea...)
You are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge (i.e., on a strictly non-commercial basis), to other authorized users who have purchased the Product, solely for use with such users' own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws.
where "Product" is defined thus -
...includes one or more CD-ROM discs containing one or more Bethesda Softworks software products for use with its proprietary RPG game, The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind(R) (each, a "Product" and collectively, the "Products") ...
So the Construction Kit licence attempts to prevent distribution of mods to OpenMW users (unless they have a copy of Morrowind)
If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable, right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit.
And for Skyrim the wording of the corresponding section allowed Bethesda/Steam to sell paid mods - until they retreated.

Clearly using OpenCS instead of Bethesda's "Editor" is the solution going forward.

It's possible that those restrictions aren't enforceable, or that an exemption can be negotiated with Bethesda, or that Debian is happy to ignore the problem. But I think the matter deserves some thought and discussion.

Loriel

PS It has been clear for many years, but emphasised during the paid mods incident, that licensing of Elder Scrolls mods is a mess. Good luck with the attempts to tidy it up.

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