Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one though.

Not about OpenMW? Just about Morrowind in general? Have some random babble? Kindly direct it here.
Chris
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Chris » 13 Jun 2016, 12:43

Greywander wrote:I don't expect it to add anything new to the PC version, and at most I'd expect one last patch to the game to fix a few bugs.
It has improved visuals, better lighting effects and better shaders (in addition to volumetric sun/god rays and what looks like improved shadows, it looks like they also implemented the flow shaders that they showed off at the game jam). It's impossible to get an in-depth accounting of the changes from just the little bits of youtube video shown though, although it's suggested it might be an update to 64-bit, which can fix a lot of problems Skyrim had with memory given that it was 32-bit.
I feel like it would have to be pretty significant to warrant selling a separate version of the game to PC gamers.
It's a free update for PC if you already have all the DLC or Legendary Edition.

https://bethesda.net/#en/events/game/sk ... /06/12/145

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Greywander
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Greywander » 15 Jun 2016, 19:42

Nice, I hadn't seen that. Looks like we won't be getting native VR, though, as they specifically said that they were working on native VR for FO4, and that won't hit until next year. Maybe we'll get native VR in Skyrim then, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
psi29a wrote:We're the Morrowind Remastered. ;)
Actually, I was wondering about this. With the great dehardcoding coming eventually, it would give us the chance to recreate Morrowind as a brand new and up to date game. In fact, I know there's been some progress on getting OpenMW to read map data from Oblivion's files, so we might be able to do one giant remake that includes Morrowind, Oblivion, and (possibly) Skyrim. Of course, it would be a lot of work, possibly more than anyone would be willing to do. It would, however, give us a chance to pick and choose what mechanics we wanted, instead of being limited to one particular engine (like Skywind and Morroblivion are).

As projects like Skywind and Tamriel Rebuilt exist, this isn't completely unrealistic. I feel like it would be a better use of people's effort to make a brand new game with a brand new IP, though. Although a Morrowind remake would be a good way for people to learn the capabilities of OpenMW, give them direction as far as development, and help draw people in to work on the project.

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Atahualpa
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Atahualpa » 15 Jun 2016, 19:58

Greywander wrote: Actually, I was wondering about this. With the great dehardcoding coming eventually, it would give us the chance to recreate Morrowind as a brand new and up to date game. In fact, I know there's been some progress on getting OpenMW to read map data from Oblivion's files, so we might be able to do one giant remake that includes Morrowind, Oblivion, and (possibly) Skyrim. Of course, it would be a lot of work, possibly more than anyone would be willing to do. It would, however, give us a chance to pick and choose what mechanics we wanted, instead of being limited to one particular engine (like Skywind and Morroblivion are).
I doubt that Bethesda & Co would allow that to happen. Mashing up contents of all their (modern) TES games sounds a bit borderline. If we tackled such an undertaking, we would need to re-create every asset -- and even then we couldn't just copy all the dialogue, quests or main storyline.

(Not to mention that the OpenMW team has no plans to add new content to Morrowind, let alone to the other games.)

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Ravenwing
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Ravenwing » 15 Jun 2016, 21:16

Well, I'm ok with this remaster since I'll be getting it for free! It'll be nice to free up some of my mod load and hopefully not have to deal with ENB. Although why depth of field is so damn popular I'll never understand, along with the whole brown color palette for shaders. Looks like we'll have plenty of time to release OpenMW before the next true TES release though: http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/15/ ... nd-fallout

Also, we should start capitalizing The Great Dehardcoding lol

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Greywander
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Greywander » 15 Jun 2016, 21:32

Well, I figured it would be implied that you'd need to own a legal copy of each game to play it. And most likely it would start as a Morrowind remake (requiring a legal copy of Morrowind), and then later there would be Oblivion "DLC" (requiring a legal copy of Oblivion), and then Skyrim etc. I would not at all be surprised if TES6 was released before the Morrowind remake was finished, meaning by the time the dev team made it to Skyrim it would be an old game (it already is a little dated).

And when I say "dev team", I don't mean the OpenMW dev team. I know they only make the engine, not the content. But presumably if such a project existed it would have its own dev team.

For assets, yeah, it would be a major pain, and one of the reason I think it's unlikely, but not unrealistic. Everything I've heard suggests that the Skywind team isn't keen on having their assets used in other projects, which is a shame, but if they were willing to give in, then we'd already have a large number of assets to work with.

As for quests and dialogue and such, I'd expect them to be rewritten and streamlined. Most likely everything would be voiced, which is easier than it sounds when you have access to a large fanbase, some of whom may be professional or at least competent voice actors. I'm not sure how the main storyline would be handled, especially if the project eventually ends up including Oblivion, Skyrim, etc. It probably wouldn't be too hard to write a new storyline based on the original (so you might still be the Nerevarine out to defeat Dagoth Ur, but the details would be different). Maybe the Oblivion storyline would requiring going to Cyrodiil and getting arrested by a guard in order to start the main story. And the Skyrim storyline would start upon crossing the border and getting ambushed. It's... a little wonky, since there's supposed to be a lot of time passing between each game. Or maybe it could use a brand new story where Morrowind is just one "arc", and each addon introduces the next arc.

Again, I think it would be a better idea to create a new IP, that way you don't run into copyright issues. I know I'm looking forward to being able to create my own game, although I certainly won't be able to do it on my own.

I'm a little curious though; If such a massive undertaking (Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim all-in-one remake) were to happen, what sort of mechanics and features would people like to see? Although maybe that should be split off into a different topic.

Ferik
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Ferik » 16 Jul 2016, 19:13

“Do you remember what it was like talking to someone and scrolling through this long list of questions. You put that out for someone that just finished Skyrim and they’re going to be like ‘What in the hell…?’”
Honestly I agree with him on this. Not that Morrowind's systems are bad, far from it as they create a game much greater than the sum of its parts, but do you honestly think the majority of people who have only played Skyrim and Fallout 4 could load up Morrowind as is and not have any problems adjusting? Visuals notwithstanding the lack of quest markers and free form fast travel, the slow starting movement speed, the complex hyperlink based dialog system that loops back in on itself, and the way stamina affects combat and spellcasting would obviously be incredibly jarring to a player used to Skyrim. Beyond that Morrowind does a very poor job of actually explaining all of its mechanics and intricacies to the player at the beginning of the game. To those of us on PC that have access to old RPG's and go back to them or try them out from time to time there's no problem with having to adjust to an older game, but consoles make up a large part of the market and would be the primary target for a remaster, and many console gamers have either never played an old PC style western RPG, or haven't played one in well over a decade.

Discovering the mechanics at your own pace and toying around with them is a large part of the fun and charm of the game; it feels more like a truly wondrous adventure than a fantasy dungeon romp, but its obtuseness would be its downfall to players accustomed to the streamlined and flashy big budget nature of the newer games. I can easily see the retention rate of those players past the first few hours being 10% or even lower.

If they did just update the console port with faster loading times, a slight visual touch up, and an HD resolution it would probably be pretty cheap, and they could release it as a budget PSN/XBLA game for those who are curious or really want to replay Morrowind, but I don't think a full budget remaster or remake is a good idea.

Chris
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Chris » 17 Jul 2016, 00:29

Ferik wrote:Discovering the mechanics at your own pace and toying around with them is a large part of the fun and charm of the game; it feels more like a truly wondrous adventure than a fantasy dungeon romp, but its obtuseness would be its downfall to players accustomed to the streamlined and flashy big budget nature of the newer games. I can easily see the retention rate of those players past the first few hours being 10% or even lower.
For me, there's a difference between me the player and the character I'm role-playing. My character's adventure is where I get the most enjoyment from RPGs, so me having to discover the mechanics of the game doesn't add to the "wondrous adventure", it just makes me feel like the game doesn't want me to play it properly, or that I'm doing something wrong even though it never told me what to do. The wondrous adventure comes from me, through my character, adventuring through a wondrous world and running across unexpected scenarios, not through hitting a brick wall because I wasn't keyed into some game mechanics before running head-first into them.

It's less about wanting "streamlined and flashy", but more about recognizing that there have been useful improvements when it comes to usability and accessibility. I first started playing CRPGs in the 80s with the old SSI D&D games on a Tandy 1000, and though I sucked at them because I was young and had trouble understanding what I needed to do, I still loved playing them because they gave me a sense of being in a fantasy world doing things (it also had a first-person perspective when walking around, along with a day-night cycle).

Since then, games have advanced a lot, they've become much better about not being unnecessarily obtuse, and with knowing how to teach you what you need to know to play while playing. Having played Morrowind after Oblivion, it definitely makes me appreciate those advances. And lest anyone think I prefer Oblivion or Skyrim because I'm one of those players, I actually prefer Daggerfall, which makes me lament Morrowind all the more for what it didn't have but could've. It also gets me kind of annoyed at some Morrowind fans (no one here) who think Oblivion started TES's "dumbing down", since Daggerfall->Morrowind likely lost much more than Morrowind->Oblivion, or that the things Morrowind did from Daggerfall were objectively for the better while the things Oblivion did from Morrowind were objectively for the worse. I actually like some the things Oblivion and Skyrim brought back that Morrowind lost in the transition from Daggerfall.

Ferik
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Ferik » 17 Jul 2016, 02:03

Morrowind is interesting in that it functions as a sort of clean break from the old games and then Oblivion pulled a lot of the old games back in.

The thing is, while Morrowind lost a lot it also gained quite a bit. The smaller map is one thing, but it's much denser, more detailed, and each area is more innately memorable due to being handcrafted. Same thing with the quests, towns, and NPC's. Not that all the NPC's in Morrowind are unique, far from it, but there's certainly a larger amount than the previous games.

This isn't even speaking of narrative or pacing which is what I feel are Morrowind's strongest suits. The game is a slow burning story about interwoven politics and religion and is quite different from a lot of other titles out there for that reason but it still pulls it off wonderfully.

Honestly the only thing I really wish Morrowind hadn't dropped is the Trial system when you get arrested, that was nifty in Daggerfall. Everything else I either don't really miss, or I feel actually worked out for the best given the game's size and structure regardless of why it was pulled out.

Chris
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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by Chris » 17 Jul 2016, 04:30

Ferik wrote:The thing is, while Morrowind lost a lot it also gained quite a bit. The smaller map is one thing, but it's much denser, more detailed, and each area is more innately memorable due to being handcrafted. Same thing with the quests, towns, and NPC's. Not that all the NPC's in Morrowind are unique, far from it, but there's certainly a larger amount than the previous games.
Daggerfall had more NPCs. Granted they were randomly spawned, but they still served the purpose of making places feel more alive. You could talk to them about anything, there were a variety of responses they could give, and they all reacted differently. Some would be more helpful than others (some would tell you what you want to know, others would tell you if they could, others wouldn't tell you even if they could, and others just won't tell you), some would respond more favorably to different methods of talking (blunt, neutral, or nice). They also cleared away at night, increasing that feeling that they were living their own lives (along with shops and guild halls closing at night).

The areas being innately more memorable in Morrowind, I wouldn't say is really true. Daggerfall had plenty of different environments, from rocky mountainous areas, hilly grasslands, plains, forests, deserts, areas that are more wet/rainy, areas that see more snow, etc. It was so designed to make different regions unique that it had a climate map that influenced the weather, and had a system in-place that would dynamically swap a model's textures depending on where you were (which applied to both interiors and exteriors). Sure you may be able to remember more finer details in the later games, but Daggerfall had plenty of memorable regions and areas too (also, a lot of Morrowind's map was taken up by the Ashlands and Molag Mar/Amur areas, which were full of gray, and way too many ash and blight storms; not places I like to be).

The size of Daggerfall's map also played into other things, such as having more realistic travel times/expenses and time scale. And that had an effect on diseases, since it gave more realistic progression instead of just being hit with the effects and having it cured within a day, and affected questing, since almost all quests are timed and can be failed (which itself fed into how quests were randomized and repeatable). Those things also fed into the crime/reputation system, since your reputation and renown were based on who you were working for and how well you were doing what they asked of you. You had an infinite number of quests available, so you didn't need to worry about running out and having nothing more to do.

A lot of this was drastically changed, if not outright dropped, to work within Morrowind's smaller scale world, simply because of how it was all interdependent. Change one thing, and those related things no longer worked as intended, without themselves having to be changed. For sure, you can personally prefer the way Morrowind did it, but it's not a universal truth that it was objectively better. Though there was plenty that was lost for no apparent reason... proper day-night (where NPCs go away at night, shops close at night, and unique night-time music), atmospheric dungeons (with unique dungeon music, and moody sound effects and lighting), a bunch more skills (critical strike, thaumaturgy, climbing, medical, etc), the character creator (being able to pick out details of your past that influenced your starting gear, stats, and reputation, and the whole Advantages and Disadvantages system for custom classes), that there was multiple tiers monsters had for weapon invulnerability (some required steel or better, some required dwarven or better, some required mithril or better, etc). I also liked that temple/religious guilds separated by individual gods, rather than a collective like "The Tribunal" or "The Imperial Cult/Nine Divines", and each god had their own knightly order. These had an immense effect on the game's atmosphere to me, along with the flavor of my character(s). And of course, can't forget about gold having weight, multiple qualities of stores (which affected the kinds of items you buy and the price you buy/sell at), buyable homes and a player ship for free water travel.

Personally, I also like how Daggerfall had more limited access to potions and enchanted gear, and that enchanted stuff was not rechargeable. This made potions and magical gear feel more special since they gave you an extra temporary edge, rather than simply being the next upgrade stage while having an overabundance of potion buffs. I also liked that repairing weapons and armor required you leaving said items with a smith for a few days, so you had to rely on backup stuff until it's done (although it took a lot longer to became worn down enough to warrant repair). And also that an item's enchantments were unknown until you got it identified... you could still use it, but you wouldn't be told what it does, and there was a chance for it to be cursed.
This isn't even speaking of narrative or pacing which is what I feel are Morrowind's strongest suits. The game is a slow burning story about interwoven politics and religion and is quite different from a lot of other titles out there for that reason but it still pulls it off wonderfully.
They are done well enough in Morrowind, yes, though I think Daggerfall did it well too. In Morrowind, you know very early on that there's this whole Nerevarine prophecy business going on which tells of The Bad Guy's defeat, and that you're involved with it (with the opening narration even strongly hinting that you're the chosen hero). While the story is good, it is a pretty straight forward you're-the-hero-to-unite-people-and-defeat-the-bad-guy (even if the bad guy may be some kind of anti-villain, he does still plan on wrecking everything and turning everyone into zombies).

In comparison, in Daggerfall you start off on a mission from the Emperor to put the soul of the now-former King of Daggerfall (who had been killed recently in battle) to rest, as he's haunting Daggerfall City with an army of ghosts . And there was secondary objective involving a "sentimental and personal" letter the Emperor sent to the then-Queen of Daggerfall that got lost somewhere, and he'd like you to find and destroy it (a particularly clever touch, since it makes you think he's alluding to it being a scandalous romance he has/had with the dead King's spouse, and doesn't want that getting around). But over the course of the main quest, you learn that not everything is as it seems. Not only were the reports of the King being killed in battle not exactly true, but the contents of the letter weren't quite what you were led to believe either. And all these things were tied together in the political backstabbing and power struggle between several of the regions, which lead to the uncovering of a powerful golem that was originally used to conquer Tamriel. I also like that you aren't some prophesied hero being sent on a quest to save the world. There is no out-right evil bad guy, and you're simply an adventurer that gets caught up in regional politics that get you sent on fantastical adventures.

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Re: Bethesda doing a Skyrim remaster, no Morrowind one thoug

Post by rstevenson1976 » 17 Jul 2016, 11:52

back to the subject of this thread, skyrim re-master, if you play openmw because linux like me, and don't dual boot again like me, it won't likely work in wine due to the direct x version being different than what wine can currently emulate

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