Mod: Levelling Just Happens

[DocClox]

Spoilers for the MW main quest follow:

Spoiler: Show

I think with any creative work, you need to consider how well it works within the strengths and limitations of the medium and format used

Which is exactly what I'm saying. Morrowind's (and Oblivion's) MQ doesn't work well within the open world format, because it's unable to properly portray the devastation that should be happening. Even Skyrim has this problem, as the dragons are unable to actually threaten anything other than some random NPCs.

Hmmm... I'm not sure that's the point I was trying to convey.

More importantly though: "devastation that should be happening". According to whom? There is no imminent apocalypse. Nothing in the material quoted so far supports the notion of an imminent apocalypse, much less an ongoing one. There's certainly one planned, but no reason to suppose it should actually be happening right here and right now.

This the point I'm trying to get at: you seem to be expecting a traditional eve-of-destruction disaster-movie plot and criticising the game/format/story because it doesn't deliver your expectations. But everything in the game suggests that what we have is a long term scheme that gets thwarted while still years, possibly decades or even centuries from completion.

I think you're comparing the plot against something which is isn't about and to which it never aspired and then complaining that it falls short of your expectations.

On the other hand we have lots of stories where everybody scrambles to defeat the Big Foozle and ignores everything else in the process. We don't have many that show us the wheels of the gods as they grind slowly but exceedingly fine.

And I'm perfectly fine with having a story that shows us "the wheels of the gods as they grind slowly but exceedingly fine". But I don't think Morrowind's MQ is that story, since it's about you helping uncover and then single-handedly handle the imminent threat of Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House.

That's pretty much ignoring the centuries long machinations of Azura to bring those events to pass. To say nothing of Vivec's careful preparations for the return of Nerevar. You are the instrument of the Gods in Morrowind. You can deny your heritage as Nerevar Reborn, but you cannot escape being the vehicle of Azura's revenge.

I also think that the main quest needs something global in scope (not necessarily apocalyptic) to make it stand out from the rest.

But does the main quest need to stand out from the rest? I mean, in a TES-style open world game, you're going through the land telling your story and doing what your character would do. Does there need to be an underlying global threat driving everything, or could it simply be driven by your want to adventure and see the world?

As I understand it, the idea was that the main quest gets the player out into the game world and gives them a framework around which to construct their own narrative from events in the game world. So it serves a purpose both in terms of game design and as a unifying thread for the game. But yeah, you and I could do without it, and I certainly have been known to ignore it completely. But I think it still needs to stand out.

Daggerfall, for instance, didn't really have a global threat.

I never did get very far in Daggerfall. It's one of those games like the first System Shock where I just can't get past the graphics, no matter how good the game is. I don't have a problem with earlier ones and later ones are obviously fine, but there's a window - somewhere between the original Wasteland and Wolfenstien 3D - where we get first person POV without the resolution to really make it work. But that's probably just me; feel free to disagree

Anyway, I'll take your word for it about DF. So let me try that point again: I think the games need a plot that is global in scope (where global means the whole of the game map, rather than necessarily all Tamriel/Mundus/Whatever). It doesn't need to be a threat to All Everything Everywhere, but the nature of drama suggests that there should be a conflict or some sort. It should also be one that takes the player all over the map and which has effects which are felt right across the map.

(Which doesn't mean that (in Morrowind) we would need to see Corprus creatures overwhelm Sadrith Mora; but we do need something like Dyvath Fyr's Corprusarium and the corprus stalker in Tel Mora to establish the scope of the effects )

(Also, I'll just point out that you were the one who suggested that the MQ story was less that it might have been because the format precluded full-scale invasion of the cites by corprus monsters, major characters being infected with corprus and a unified cross faction response to the threat of DU.)

Actually, it's stated in game too.
"Phase 3:
Expand from smaller bases to other towns and villages, and recruit and indoctrinate subjects made susceptible by dream sendings. Occupy abandoned towers and ruins, and train corrupted cultists as raiders and irregular troops. Identify, discredit, and decimate possible sources of political resistance.
...
So, yeah. Stuff's supposed to be going down. Dagoth Ur's patient, but he's still moving. Don't forget, his plan is to conquer all of Tamriel and beyond, Vvardenfell is just going to be the first step. It's like a fire... at the macroscale it's slow and takes time to burn, but at the microscale it's pure constant destruction.

Stuff is going down, and eventually it's going to be on the scale that you envision. However, there's nothing to suggest that events in-game have progressed to the apocalyptic. For instance, from the same document you cite:

Dagoth Ur thinks on a large time scale -- for the most part, in the outside-of-time scale of the divine consciousness. He thinks that only obstacles of mythic scale are worth consideration. He believes he is fated to rule Morrowind, to free Morrowind of the Empire, and to become the new hard-loving Father of Morrowind. Given that perspective, the only opposing forces Dagoth Ur worries about are the Tribunal, the Daedra, the Emperor, and the Incarnate.

With the Tribunal's loss of Sunder and Keening, and with the diminishing resources of Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, Dagoth Ur believes he has permanently gained a decisive strategic advantage. On a mortal timescale, the battle may last for centuries, but the outcome is not in doubt. And Akulakhan may be a device for dramatically reducing the time scale for a decisive victory.

So neither Vivec (who gives you this document in-game) or the temple believe that an apocalypse is imminent, much less ongoing. They both seem to believe (as does DU) that without the temple is going to lose, but it's not going to happen any time soon. Unless Du gets his hands on Wraithguard and gets Akulakhan going, possibly. But that's not going to happen unless Vivec or the PC hand it over, and that's not going to happen.

So, yeah. DG is undoubtedly planning terrible things. It's just that there's nothing to suggest that events have (or should have) developed to the point where they impact the population of Vvardenfell on the scale and with the intensity that you seem to expect. On the other hand, there is plenty to suggest otherwise.

And after all, where is it written that the plot can only be foiled at the Eleventh Hour?

I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy myself. Either you can only consider events that directly involve the protagonist, or you have to include every bit of game lore no matter how irrelevant?

It's either that, or you cherry pick what you want from each. However, such a comparison will always be biased because it's a subjective measurement of just how important some piece of history or lore is to be included in the comparison.

But isn't that the whole point of literary criticism/appreciation? You go through the narrative looking for those elements that yield a deeper insight into the work, cherry picking them in effect. Admittedly, I was writing an academic paper, I'd be expected to list those elements that worked against my thesis, if only to show that I was aware of them. But I didn't think we were being quite that formal here

Cherry picking is a valid complaint of course if we're having an argument where someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. However, I'd like to remind you that I've never said that you are wrong on this one particular point. I just happen to think that there may be more than one correct answer.

I also said from the start that this may be one point on which we have to agree to differ. That said, I'm happy to defend my position for as long as you wish

Secondly, discounting secondary information sources would also stop you from considering the backstory of many characters[1]. I find that particularly problematic in Morrowind since the story of Nerevar is is the backstory of the PC.

Unless you consider the PC of Morrowind to not be Nerevar reborn, but just some pawn of Azura or just one lucky SOB, which are valid interpretations. In which case, the history of Nerevar with the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur is irrelevant to the MQ, as might be Azura. See what I mean about including extraneous details making biased comparisons?
[/quote]

It's less about who are are as the PC and more about the role in history you fulfil. Nerevar or not, you are the Nerevarine, anointed as such by Azura, bearer of the Moon-And-Star and acknowledged by Vivec and the Temple. To understand how your character fits into the game world, you need that backstory. That would still be the case if you were the Incarnate; if you were not the Incarnate; if you were but chose to deny it in order to annoy Dagoth Ur; if you were not but claimed you were because you thought it made you look cool; or if you were the Incarnate but were genuinely unaware of your prior incarnation. The fact that you're given some latitude in how you RP the character doesn't change who you are in the game world. Your role in history gets dumped on you whether you accept it or not.

To restate my earlier point: I think it's possible, as with any good creative work, to consider Morrowind on a number of levels.

Sure, but the point of all this is about the MQ story of open world RPGs compared to non-open world RPGs. Absolutely, Morrowind and other TES games as a whole can be considered on multiple levels. Yes, the TES games provide an arguably better experience than more linear RPGs. But the point is that the individual stories told by the TES games are weaker as a result of being in an open world format since they can't be as complex or in-depth with far-reaching consequences.

I'm starting to think that it's more a matter of a disconnect between your expectations for the genre and the objectives of the writers. You get so preoccupied with how it falls short of what it could have been in another setting and with other writers that you're completely blinded as to how very well it accomplishes what it set out to do.

Is this a good time to revisit the idea of spinning part of this off into it's own thread? We are so far off topic at this point, I think we'd need a Guild Guide to find our way back.

[edit]

Typos. And some emphasis on the quoted passage.

Also I seem to keep hitting "quote" when I mean edit for some silly reason. Excess posts deleted.

[Okulo]

Did you ever see my level up mod yalsm?

I'm still interested in seeing this, ezze. Unfortunately, it was only on PES, it seems, because I can't find it anywhere anymore.

[Chris]

Spoiler: Show

This the point I'm trying to get at: you seem to be expecting a traditional eve-of-destruction disaster-movie plot and criticising the game/format/story because it doesn't deliver your expectations.

It's the expectation the game's story is giving me. Like I said, I think TES games would be a lot better if they didn't have end-of-the-world written all over them. I want it to not be about impending destruction, but that's what I get from playing through it.

That's pretty much ignoring the centuries long machinations of Azura to bring those events to pass. To say nothing of Vivec's careful preparations for the return of Nerevar.

Which is the sticking point between us, since I don't consider them as part of the MQ. They're related and give context to it, but you can play the MQ without getting into that stuff (not simply willfully ignoring it, as if it's told to you and you just skip by without reading it, but rather that it's side stuff you can optionally look into if you want); like reading a prequel story to get a better understanding of the current one.

you cannot escape being the vehicle of Azura's revenge.

Assuming Azura had an active hand in it. The only things I recall Azura actually doing was tell you you're the chosen one (at the beginning) and later to seek out Nibani Maesa (which I think you're told to do by someone else, too). Anything else is open to interpretation.

I never did get very far in Daggerfall. It's one of those games like the first System Shock where I just can't get past the graphics, no matter how good the game is.

I can understand that. As much as I like Daggerfall, the graphics (or more specifically, the resolution, framerate, and view distance) are the main things that keep me from playing it for long periods of time. It's a shame the DaggerXL project is effectively dead.

Anyway, I'll take your word for it about DF. So let me try that point again: I think the games need a plot that is global in scope (where global means the whole of the game map, rather than necessarily all Tamriel/Mundus/Whatever). It doesn't need to be a threat to All Everything Everywhere, but the nature of drama suggests that there should be a conflict or some sort. It should also be one that takes the player all over the map and which has effects which are felt right across the map.

Fair enough, and in which case I don't really disagree with you. Skyrim's civil war, for instance, would've been just fine as the "global conflict" for the game (assuming it had better quests, anyway) since it had the type of drama and conflict that would send you all over and have an effect all across the map (guard patrols changing hands, Jarls being replaced, etc), without being a threat to life as we know it.

Stuff is going down, and eventually it's going to be on the scale that you envision. However, there's nothing to suggest that events in-game have progressed to the apocalyptic. For instance, from the same document you cite:

Dagoth Ur thinks on a large time scale -- for the most part, in the outside-of-time scale of the divine consciousness. He thinks that only obstacles of mythic scale are worth consideration. He believes he is fated to rule Morrowind, to free Morrowind of the Empire, and to become the new hard-loving Father of Morrowind. Given that perspective, the only opposing forces Dagoth Ur worries about are the Tribunal, the Daedra, the Emperor, and the Incarnate.

With the Tribunal's loss of Sunder and Keening, and with the diminishing resources of Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, Dagoth Ur believes he has permanently gained a decisive strategic advantage. On a mortal timescale, the battle may last for centuries, but the outcome is not in doubt. And Akulakhan may be a device for dramatically reducing the time scale for a decisive victory.

This is why I pointed out that Dagoth Ur's plans are for the whole of Tamriel and beyond. It could very well take him centuries to fully and utterly conquer the Empire, but that doesn't means his takeover of Vvardenfell will be slow and almost unseen. Think of the fire comparison, again... it would take a good while for fire to consume a log, but individual parts of the log will be very quickly damaged.

Also, note the fourth and final phase of Dagoth Ur's plan:
"Phase 4:
Use assassination and terror to weaken, distract, and disrupt the Legions and the Imperial bureaucracy, along with their Hlaalu sympathizers. Inspire popular uprisings of the native poor against the foreign rich and powerful. Summon Sleepers and Dreamers to Dagoth Ur to work on Second Numidium."

And check what you see in Akulakhan's Chamber: sleepers and dreamers working on Akulakhan. So we're identifiably at the point where the Sixth House should be assassinating and instilling terror into the Imperials and their sympathizers, as well as creating uprisings against the established powers and decimating political resistance. Yet we don't see this happening. Similarly, the report says that between 3E 426-427 (the game starts in 3E 427) there is a "sudden increase in number and seriousness of attacks by cultists and victims deranged by soul sickness." Where are these numerous and serious attacks? The cultists and corprus beasts are all hiding in caves or behind the ghostfence, and the few cultists wandering outside these spaces do anything except talk to you when you walk by.

But isn't that the whole point of literary criticism/appreciation? You go through the narrative looking for those elements that yield a deeper insight into the work, cherry picking them in effect.

There's a difference between critiquing a body of work (e.g. Tolkien's Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, and other related materials together) and critiquing an individual story (e.g. The Two Towers in isolation). When looking for deeper insight and meaning into the work, you're usually dealing with the former, while technical aspects like presentation and execution, it's more the latter.

In TES terms, this would be the difference between critiquing the world history and lore (where you find insight and meaning and such), and critiquing a questline (where you're more looking at presentation and execution).

However, I'd like to remind you that I've never said that you are wrong on this one particular point. I just happen to think that there may be more than one correct answer.

You did say "I wouldn't say [the open world nature of the game] necessarily results in a worse story", which is what I disagreed with and has led to the discussion about what constitutes being part of the story.

I'm starting to think that it's more a matter of a disconnect between your expectations for the genre and the objectives of the writers. You get so preoccupied with how it falls short of what it could have been in another setting and with other writers that you're completely blinded as to how very well it accomplishes what it set out to do.

Then I think you're not really understanding my position. I completely understand why it is like it is (I've said it multiple times), and in many ways I'm actually grateful since otherwise it would mean adding more linearity to the game. The point I'm getting at is that the MQ's story is not a good fit for an open world style game -- not what it could have been (what I wanted it to be), but what it should have been (what the story itself wanted to be) -- since it could not have the breadth and scope it was apparently going for.

[DocClox]

Spoilers. MQ. Yadda yadda yadda.

Spoiler: Show

This the point I'm trying to get at: you seem to be expecting a traditional eve-of-destruction disaster-movie plot and criticising the game/format/story because it doesn't deliver your expectations.

It's the expectation the game's story is giving me. Like I said, I think TES games would be a lot better if they didn't have end-of-the-world written all over them. I want it to not be about impending destruction, but that's what I get from playing through it.

It's certainly about destruction. I just don't see why you're still so hung up on the "impending" part.

I mean seriously: I can't see anything to support the "eve of destruction" interpretation. End of the world, certainly. Happening now, or about to happen? Not according to Vivec. Not according to Dagoth Ur. And not according to the events portrayed in the game.

Why do you cling to this notion of imminent disaster when all the evidence argues otherwise?

you cannot escape being the vehicle of Azura's revenge.

Assuming Azura had an active hand in it. The only things I recall Azura actually doing was tell you you're the chosen one (at the beginning) and later to seek out Nibani Maesa (which I think you're told to do by someone else, too). Anything else is open to interpretation.

It's an interesting point. I mean we do know that the Nerevarine is the instrument of Azura's revenge against the Tribunal. By destroying the Heart, the tribunal lose their divine power and she can finally exact vengeance for their betrayal in using Kagrenac's Tools for their own ends. The trouble is, I'm not sure that can be supported without recourse to some of Micheal Kirkbrides supplemental material, which is definitely outside the scope of the main story. I was under the impression that she took credit for it all in the post DU cutscene, but my game crashed just as that started the other night and I can't seem to find a transcript on the net.

Still, even setting aside Azura, you can't avoid being Vivec's chosen weapon against Dagoth Ur. Vivec makes no bones about it. I think I'll stand by the PC being an instrument of the gods, even if the Gods in question are "only" the Tribunal.

It's also worth pointing out that deliberate ambiguity in a narrative is a well established literary device. The fact that an outcome is left open to interpretation is not usually regarded as a barrier to discussing the possible outcomes.

Fair enough, and in which case I don't really disagree with you. Skyrim's civil war, for instance, would've been just fine as the "global conflict" for the game (assuming it had better quests, anyway) since it had the type of drama and conflict that would send you all over and have an effect all across the map (guard patrols changing hands, Jarls being replaced, etc), without being a threat to life as we know it.

mmm... it strikes me as a little bland for that purpose. Possibly because it lacks the whole good-vs-evil thing. (I know Ulfric's motives are deeply questionable, but that aside). Not there's any reason why it needs to be good vs evil of course, but certainly if it was going to engage my attention the way the Alduin plot did, it would need some work. Personally, I usually complete the Skyrim MQ. The civil war quests on the other hand, I only do if I can't be bothered to do the legwork for Season Unending.

But yeah, it could be made to work.

This is why I pointed out that Dagoth Ur's plans are for the whole of Tamriel and beyond. It could very well take him centuries to fully and utterly conquer the Empire, but that doesn't means his takeover of Vvardenfell will be slow and almost unseen. Think of the fire comparison, again... it would take a good while for fire to consume a log, but individual parts of the log will be very quickly damaged.

The the scale of his ambitions is not something I'm disputing. I just don't think there is any evidence that events have progressed to the point of engulfing Vvardenfell in widespread death and destruction.

Also, note the fourth and final phase of Dagoth Ur's plan:
"Phase 4:
Use assassination and terror to weaken, distract, and disrupt the Legions and the Imperial bureaucracy, along with their Hlaalu sympathizers. Inspire popular uprisings of the native poor against the foreign rich and powerful. Summon Sleepers and Dreamers to Dagoth Ur to work on Second Numidium."

And check what you see in Akulakhan's Chamber: sleepers and dreamers working on Akulakhan. So we're identifiably at the point where the Sixth House should be assassinating and instilling terror into the Imperials and their sympathizers, as well as creating uprisings against the established powers and decimating political resistance. Yet we don't see this happening.

I think in order for that to necessarily follow, you'd need Dagoth Ur standing there with his metaphorical stopwatch and timing everything so that the first assassination coincided exactly with the first dreamer clocking in to start work on Akulakhan. But that doesn't really jibe with what else we know of his character. He's seems pretty relaxed about schedules in general.

Add to that the man himself telling you that his plans are just to continue the blight winds and keep on building the Sixth House bases and I think that interpretation tenuous at best.

One the other hand, it certainly can be interpreted as supporting your position. It's just that pretty much else does not.

Similarly, the report says that between 3E 426-427 (the game starts in 3E 427) there is a "sudden increase in number and seriousness of attacks by cultists and victims deranged by soul sickness." Where are these numerous and serious attacks? The cultists and corprus beasts are all hiding in caves or behind the ghostfence, and the few cultists wandering outside these spaces do anything except talk to you when you walk by.

Well, there was the corprus stalker in the sewers of that Vivec canton that had been preying on people. And the one in the tradehouse in Tel Mora that they'd barricaded upstairs. And the infestation in Moravyn Manor. And the sleepers in nearly every town and city grabbing you to make threats. And then there are the disturbing dreams - the soul sickness - that most people seem to have experienced.

In fact, when you add it all up, I actually think he's doing a pretty good job of spreading terror. It's a little more subtle than you were expecting, but I don't think that disqualifies anything. Granted I'm not aware of any Hlaalu assassinations (unless you count the murder of Ralen Hlaalo - and it's difficult to link that to the Sixth House), but other than that all your boxes are ticked.

But isn't that the whole point of literary criticism/appreciation? You go through the narrative looking for those elements that yield a deeper insight into the work, cherry picking them in effect.

There's a difference between critiquing a body of work (e.g. Tolkien's Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, and other related materials together) and critiquing an individual story (e.g. The Two Towers in isolation). When looking for deeper insight and meaning into the work, you're usually dealing with the former, while technical aspects like presentation and execution, it's more the latter.

It's a while since I did any Eng.Lit, but I remember we had to analyse everything from short stories to plays to novels. I don't think there's any rule that says the process is only valid on a vast body of work.

However, I'd like to remind you that I've never said that you are wrong on this one particular point. I just happen to think that there may be more than one correct answer.

You did say "I wouldn't say [the open world nature of the game] necessarily results in a worse story", which is what I disagreed with and has led to the discussion about what constitutes being part of the story.

The particular point that gave rise to this part of the discussion is my assertion that the story of the First Council can be considered as the main story of the game. Hence, I am not suggesting that your viewpoint (that the main story is the events that happen to the PC) is not a valid one; I'm simply suggesting that it's equally valid to look at the wider picture.

You are of course free to disagree, and have been doing so with some vigor. Just let's try and be clear on what the disagreement is about

Then I think you're not really understanding my position. I completely understand why it is like it is (I've said it multiple times), and in many ways I'm actually grateful since otherwise it would mean adding more linearity to the game. The point I'm getting at is that the MQ's story is not a good fit for an open world style game -- not what it could have been (what I wanted it to be), but what it should have been (what the story itself wanted to be) -- since it could not have the breadth and scope it was apparently going for.

And I think that's probably true about the story you thought they were telling. It's just that there's very little evidence to support your interpretation, and really rather a lot to the contrary.

Frankly, I think you jumped to a conclusion when you first played the game and I think it stuck. And while I respect that you're standing your ground and defending your position, I think that when this is all over and you look back on it, you'll probably find yourself agreeing with me on this one. The facts simply do not support your argument.

Out of curiosity, what does yalsm stand for? I was going to look for it on Morrowind Modding History, but realised I had no idea what to search for.

[ezze]

yalsm means "yet another level system mod."

The name comes because yalsm arrived late compared to GCD and other, but I liked neither as they are too overdone. GCD even contained an excel sheet to explain all the influences... Besides, by design, GCD kept the initial decision very important and I did not like it. IMO the initial values are just background and you can still become something different. Of course since you start with low stats it might be difficult, but it is expected. If you trained with hammers for a life, switching to the sword can be a problem.
I remember playing around with GCD to make it as I like but I noticed that most the extra complexity was not needed anymore so I made my own.

Simple and clear for the user: each skill influences four attributes, a lot the governor, a little a second one (usually an attribute connected to the governor like intelligence and willpower) and almost nothing a third one (usually personality, because stronger means more charismatic! ) and Luck. Got it? Now just play naturally.


I tried googleing the full name and it seems there are two vestiges: some strange problems and a copy of the description.

It is probably lost forever, but it is not really so grave. The basic idea is saved in this server and also I wrote down how to make the base formulae. The morrowind scripting was so broken that the code even if recovered would be fairly useless. It is just a pity to have lost the documentation with all the influences, but I think it can redone quite quickly.

I remember I had to do all kind of strange stuff to get the real (not considering magic) skill values and it could not work in all cases. Besides the lack of any kind of abstraction mechanism forced me to repeat the code for each skill. I remember I wrote a python program to generate the scripts.

To make yalsm complete I needed to make health work better and add a way (like a ring or a spell) that resets all the values. So if the player feels something is wrong (it can happen, overall after curses) he heals all ailments, remove all the equipment, cast the spell and all the values get fixed. But I found this second point so artificial and annoying that I lost interest.

[DocClox]

Does this help?

http://mw.modhistory.com/download-56-6684

The download link gives me a 7z containing a readme and an esp. I can't test it here, but I've found MMH to be reliable so far

[ezze]

Well, here it is... Now I remember all the extra stuff for developing were not in the distributed file, but only in my revision control. Maybe it is still in some dusty disk in my home...
However I admit I am touched of reading my old readme, the English was not so bad even. It is not very technical, but it explains all the points. I totally forgot about the Fortify Health thingy, it was necessary (once again) to workaround the limitations of Morrowind.

This little .7z also show my pedantry about little details: the filenames are in lowercase, the two files are inside "data files" and not in some strange directory, the readme is simply called "readme yalsm.txt," my idea was that doing so in alphabetical order all the readme would be nearby and there cannot be any overlapping.


"This mod was copied from Planet Elder Scrolls; redistribution permission was given on PES download page." Hail to the public domain! It saved this (very) little piece of human culture....

Sigh, thanks DocClox.


Edit: in the website are other mods of mine. I forgot about half of those! The Guild guide and Travel Mode were other nice ones.

[DocClox]

Sigh, thanks DocClox.

My pleasure.

[silentthief]

I realize that I am a lil late to help with suggesting finding an old mod, but they collect them over at http://fliggerty.com as well, and if they don't have yalsm then I bet they'd want it. They are trying to collect hard-to-find mods there so they don't get cast off into oblivion

ST
just thought I'd share

[DocClox]

I realize that I am a lil late to help with suggesting finding an old mod, but they collect them over at http://fliggerty.com as well, and if they don't have yalsm then I bet they'd want it. They are trying to collect hard-to-find mods there so they don't get cast off into oblivion

ST
just thought I'd share

Yeah, MMH is part of Great House Fliggerty. If the stuff had to be rescued from PES, ElricM or similar, it's on MMH. If anyone updates something, it'll go on Fliggerty.


There's also Wolflore. MMH is supposed to be family friendly, so the Wolflore has it's own version of MMH to host the naughty stuff. Not that anyone here would be interested in such stuff, obviously/