- Spoiler: Show
I think I finished the game three or four times before I realised there was an opening cinematic. Certainly I remember being surprised when I read the decoded message to Caius for the first time and realised that I was supposed to be this Nerevarine person. I remember being surprised at catching corprus and more so by Dyvath Fyr's approach to curing it. I remember being really surprised to fund out talking to Vivec meant meeting a living god in person rather than talking to some priest or Wizard of Oz type special effect.Chris wrote: The plot, sure. TES games have generally been fine with having decent or good plots. But twists and surprises in the story? I'm not sure I can really think of anything that stands out... certainly nothing like the surprise twist about your character in Baldur's Gate*. I mean heck, Morrowind literally says you're the chosen one in the opening cinematic, and you do just about everything the prophecy says you need to do, up to and including defeating the big bad.
So for me, "I'm the Nerevarine?" was more or less comparable with "What do you mean, my dad was some dead evil god?" I suppose if you argue that the opening video should have given less away then I'd be hard put to disagree, although I'd call that an error in presentation rather than a flaw in the story, personally
So, let's try a thought experiment. In our heads, let's butcher Morrowind and trim out all that extraneous detail. In this new game you get off at Seyda Neen, buy supplies from Arille, maybe grind some mudcrabs until you can afford the fee for the silt strider which is now the only means of reaching Balmora. When you get to Balmora you find Caius and he sends you to Hasaphat Ass at the fighter's guild. No factions are joinable the only quests are those that advance the main quest, areas not needed for the MQ are unavailable - the world only exists in small areas linked by fast travel - much as in Dragon Age. In effect, we're going to force the player to speedrun Dagoth Ur.Chris wrote:
For the quest itself, I would disagree and say that yes, it results in a worse story. The experience is not necessarily worse off, but the things actually going on can't be as intricately interconnected for that reason. The story can't have anything major happen that would have large ramifications because of everything else that's not that story. I mean, it's not like anything major can happen to Balmora or Ald'ruhn and its residents, even though they should be prime targets for attack by the Sixth House, because too many other quests rely on those places and people being there.In contrast TES games, and Morrowind in particular are necessarily much slower paced. The open world nature means that A->B-C turns into A->Q->G->wombat->32->B->C->Z and so the game needs to accommodate that in the story. I wouldn't say this necessarily results in a worse story but it certainly gives a slower paced one.
Now: has the story improved as a result of this treatment? I think we'd both agree that the game would suffer as a result, as certainly would the player experience. But has the story behind the MQ been improved? Because I just can't see it.
But does it have to change?Chris wrote:
I'd have to disagree here too, and this highlights the actual reason for why I think TES's stories tend to be more lack luster. The Mages Guild doesn't in any way acknowledge Dagoth Ur's threat any more than anyone else. They offer no unique perspective on what you need to do, they offer no unique options, they offer no guidance or help beyond what they normally do... it's all business as usual no matter what's going on in the MQ. How you go about it may affect your character's narrative, but the MQ's story doesn't change.Now in Morrowind, particularly, the devs take these differences and turn them to advantage. It's not so much that the story of the PC defeating Dagoth Ur gets diluted by the Mages' Guild quests and doing business with House Hlaalu. It's more that you get a the story of the Nerevarine that used his postion within Hlaalu and the resources of the Mages' Guild to defeat Dagoth Ur.
I know modern creative writing teaches that the art of good storytelling is to omit every extraneous detail but personally I think that's because most of these people are taling about writing for television or film where you have a limited amount of time and need to pack as much in as you can. That's not necessariy true in other genres. Would Lord of the Rings have been a better book if JRRT had cut the entirely irrelevant Tom Bombadil chapter? Did Treebeard's lament about the Entwives detract from the story at all? Again, I can't see it.
Does all world history and lore necessarily have to be in a separate bracket from the story? There is plenty of unrelated lore in the game, certainly. But the War of the First Council and the consequence of those events as they echo down the centuries is fundamental to the MQ and to the game. It's not like Trap or Feyfolken which are interesting and charming but also quite irrelevant.Chris wrote:
This would be the world history and lore, which I agree is really good. But it's not the MQ story, which starts with you getting off the boat and (effectively) ends with Dagoth Ur's death. It doesn't include the War of the First Council any more than it includes Red Year. Those are related, but separate, stories creating a larger narrative.Speaking of Nerevar, that brings me to the final point I'd make. The story Morrowind tells isn't really the story how the PC defeats Dagoth Ur. The story it tells is the story of the First Council; of Nerevar and Dumac and Kagrenac and Nerevar's betrayal by the soon to be tribunal, and the curse laid upon the Chimer people and Azura's scheme to be avenged on Vivec, and almost incidentally, the destruction of the Heart of Lorkan and the downfall of Dagoth Ur.
Maybe it comes down to how we define what a story is. We may need to agree to differ on this one
Mod: Levelling Just Happens
Re: Mod: Levelling Just Happens
I suppose presentation does play a part in it, but genre savvyness should clue players in that something's up with you once they start talking about the Nerevarine and how you were sent to fulfill it the prophecies. It'd be one thing if the game was effective at better masking or instilling doubt about your role in everything that's going on, but it doesn't (and I'm not sure it could; the concept of a foreigner being ingratiated into a backwater society to appear to be some prophecied hero/savior in an attempt to control said society, only for said person to turn out to actually be said hero/savior and work against the people who put him up, is a familiar trope too).DocClox wrote:So for me, "I'm the Nerevarine?" was more or less comparable with "What do you mean, my dad was some dead evil god?" I suppose if you argue that the opening video should have given less away then I'd be hard put to disagree, although I'd call that an error in presentation rather than a flaw in the story, personally
Ironically, I find Oblivion better subverts genre stereotypes in making you not the chosen one destined to save the world. It turns out that Martin's the savior, that he goes through growth from being a lowly priest of Akatosh to becoming a war leader and Emperor, and ultimately turning into an Avatar of Akatosh to fend off Dagon's invasion. He was the hero, and you were the trusty sidekick that helped him achieve his station. Double ironically, that's one of the things people dislike Oblivion's story for, that it didn't conform to standard fantasy tropes of you being the chosen hero (then turn around and say it was a poor game because it was all just generic fantasy).
Not if you don't change the story, no it won't be improved. But if you add in more events, say the damaging or destruction of various cities, the loss of life with cities full of innocent people and important characters getting killed or infected with corprus and turned into corprus beasts as Dagoth Ur's power grows and the Ghostfence fails, then the story does improve as it better relates the danger and Dagoth's growing destructive power, thereby making your victory against him that much more potent.So, let's try a thought experiment. In our heads, let's butcher Morrowind and trim out all that extraneous detail. In this new game you get off at Seyda Neen, buy supplies from Arille, maybe grind some mudcrabs until you can afford the fee for the silt strider which is now the only means of reaching Balmora. When you get to Balmora you find Caius and he sends you to Hasaphat Ass at the fighter's guild. No factions are joinable the only quests are those that advance the main quest, areas not needed for the MQ are unavailable - the world only exists in small areas linked by fast travel - much as in Dragon Age. In effect, we're going to force the player to speedrun Dagoth Ur.
Now: has the story improved as a result of this treatment?
No, that's a general principle in story writing. Even in books you don't want to include extraneous details because people tend to get bored or frustrated if their time is wasted with unimportant stuff while they're waiting to get back to the things that are relevant. What is relevant is not always a well-defined metric, but the author should have a reason for including some detail (Tolkien was obsessed with world building, so things like Tom Bombadil and Treebeard talking about the Entwives served the purpose of fleshing out the world; though not everyone agrees they were relevant, and such people find the books less enjoyable because of it).I know modern creative writing teaches that the art of good storytelling is to omit every extraneous detail but personally I think that's because most of these people are taling about writing for television or film where you have a limited amount of time and need to pack as much in as you can.
But if you follow that logic, then the whole of Skyrim is just another chapter in Oblivion's story. The events in Skyrim wouldn't be happening if not for Oblivion's story being about the fall of the Septim dynasty, the end of the Imperial's divine rule, which seeded the return of the Aldmeri Dominion and the Great War, which is the reason behind the civil war (and the civil war is one of the causes behind Alduin's return). Where does it end?Does all world history and lore necessarily have to be in a separate bracket from the story? There is plenty of unrelated lore in the game, certainly. But the War of the First Council and the consequence of those events as they echo down the centuries is fundamental to the MQ and to the game.
Re: Mod: Levelling Just Happens
No, what I'm saying is that the extra non-MQ-related elements, in conjunction with it being an open world game, prohibits the MQ story from being as good as it can be. It can't, for instance, make Dagoth Ur a real threat because he can't do anything that impacts the world around him. He can't attack and have a real effect on the Tribunal Temple or the Imperial Cult because the player can currently be going through (or plan to go through) the quest lines, he can't attack and have an effect on various settlements because the player may still have quests there, etc. It can't have the various guilds actually help move against him because the player's potential presence in those guilds would complicate the ways they should interact (the guilds should react differently if you're already the guild figure head, or just a lowly initiate, or completely unaffiliated, or in a rival guild, or head of a rival guild; and they shouldn't worry about their usual tasks like picking flowers or bullying rivals if you're currently readying them all up to battle the Sixth House).DocClox wrote:But, and forgive me if I'm misrepresenting your position here, but your whole argument so far seems to have been that the presence of extraneous elements not linked to the MQ distracts from the story.Chris wrote:Not if you don't change the story, no it won't be improved. But if you add in more events, say the damaging or destruction of various cities, the loss of life with cities full of innocent people and important characters getting killed or infected with corprus and turned into corprus beasts as Dagoth Ur's power grows and the Ghostfence fails, then the story does improve as it better relates the danger and Dagoth's growing destructive power, thereby making your victory against him that much more potent.
This is, again, why I think TES just needs to stop with these constant end-of-the-world-scenario MQs. You just can't have them affecting the world like they should in an open world game, without wasting a ton of resources on designing interactions that could otherwise be put towards better quests and quest lines.
Right, there's much more to Morrowind than it's MQ, and there's more to games than the story. So just because the game's stories aren't as good as they could otherwise be, that doesn't mean the game can't still provide an enjoyable player-driven experience.I'd take your point if Morrowind was a boring game bogged down in tedious irrelevancies, but it isn't.No, that's a general principle in story writing. Even in books you don't want to include extraneous details because people tend to get bored or frustrated if their time is wasted with unimportant stuff while they're waiting to get back to the things that are relevant.
I'm saying that an author should tell the story they want to tell, and only include the details necessary to tell it. Tolkien obviously thought Bombadil was (at least at one point) necessary, in either establishing something about the world that he thought the reader needed to know, or to move the action along, or whatever (FWIW, I've never read the books, so I don't exactly know what Bombadil offered to the story, or whether I would find it better without him).So then, are you saying that LOTR would have been a better story if Tom Bombadil was cut from the book? Or are you saying that it's better to always cater to the lowest common denominator?
Only because it was the first game of the series to introduce that lore (an interesting factoid is that the Tribunal and the lore surrounding them didn't exist before Morrowind said they did). Morrowind had to tell it to give context to the MQ, but it's still background information to the MQ story.On the other hand the War of the First Council and it's consequences and eventual resolution; that tale is told in Morrowind.
Re: Mod: Levelling Just Happens
I have been following this thread for some, there are some interesting viewpoints, the biggest problem I have is it is somewhat of a spoiler for those who have not played the main quest.
I first started with MW the month it came out. I had played P&P rpg's for years and several crpg's but was disillusioned by the Wizards of the Coast convoluted rules and many crpg's were going a similar if not the same route, admittedly most of the calculations were done for you but it still left an awkward levelling up process and some strange balancing problems, a lot caused by just having one denomination of money. Crpg's were even less flexible than DM run games, the trend was well set for combat being the only thing of interest while I was looking for fulfilment through less combat.
MW offered two plus points, an open ended free style game and a different levelling system based more on actions with skills than on a vague predetermined experience points. In my mind from first starting to play it was infinitely better than anything else on offer at the time. I knew nothing of the Elder Scrolls lore or the game worlds backstory, and much preferred it that way, discovering the lore and the world is all part of my story as the character I play especially as it was free style playing.
My method of playing seems to be different to most peoples. I create one character only, I play with that character until they die or it seems there is no content left to discover, I also do not use save games other than to pause while sleeping or working in the real world. I do make an exception if I do something silly on the first day, which I did do, I went in the smugglers cave with no armour and just the dagger from the Customs office, I also had not studied the mechanics of fighting.
I restarted and made the same character and took thing carefully from then on, I was not happy that some skills were already to high but I created a backstory for my character that made it possible, though really I think that skills should be more like 15 for major and 10 for minor and base attributes should generally be about 10 points lower at the start. It took me a while to check out Seyda Neen then I headed to Caius, I had a quest to see him, I got some advice about getting work and training and some money and was told to come back later. At this point I thought that being an open ended game everything so far had been tutorial and I was now free to play, so I did. I kept the character alive for almost 4 years, I never went back to Caius, I had no idea there was a main quest, but with a few hours play every day I built my own story of an adventurer in MW. Possibly some of the quests I did were part of the main quest, I do not know, but even without following any programmed story I enjoyed the game enough to be ready to start again with OpenMW.
Perhaps there should have been more hints to get me to follow the main quest, but why? I had enough fun without doing it, and with mods like morrowind crafting there is even less need to follow the main quest and whole new stories to created of the best carpenter in Vvardenfell.
I first started with MW the month it came out. I had played P&P rpg's for years and several crpg's but was disillusioned by the Wizards of the Coast convoluted rules and many crpg's were going a similar if not the same route, admittedly most of the calculations were done for you but it still left an awkward levelling up process and some strange balancing problems, a lot caused by just having one denomination of money. Crpg's were even less flexible than DM run games, the trend was well set for combat being the only thing of interest while I was looking for fulfilment through less combat.
MW offered two plus points, an open ended free style game and a different levelling system based more on actions with skills than on a vague predetermined experience points. In my mind from first starting to play it was infinitely better than anything else on offer at the time. I knew nothing of the Elder Scrolls lore or the game worlds backstory, and much preferred it that way, discovering the lore and the world is all part of my story as the character I play especially as it was free style playing.
My method of playing seems to be different to most peoples. I create one character only, I play with that character until they die or it seems there is no content left to discover, I also do not use save games other than to pause while sleeping or working in the real world. I do make an exception if I do something silly on the first day, which I did do, I went in the smugglers cave with no armour and just the dagger from the Customs office, I also had not studied the mechanics of fighting.
I restarted and made the same character and took thing carefully from then on, I was not happy that some skills were already to high but I created a backstory for my character that made it possible, though really I think that skills should be more like 15 for major and 10 for minor and base attributes should generally be about 10 points lower at the start. It took me a while to check out Seyda Neen then I headed to Caius, I had a quest to see him, I got some advice about getting work and training and some money and was told to come back later. At this point I thought that being an open ended game everything so far had been tutorial and I was now free to play, so I did. I kept the character alive for almost 4 years, I never went back to Caius, I had no idea there was a main quest, but with a few hours play every day I built my own story of an adventurer in MW. Possibly some of the quests I did were part of the main quest, I do not know, but even without following any programmed story I enjoyed the game enough to be ready to start again with OpenMW.
Perhaps there should have been more hints to get me to follow the main quest, but why? I had enough fun without doing it, and with mods like morrowind crafting there is even less need to follow the main quest and whole new stories to created of the best carpenter in Vvardenfell.
Re: Mod: Levelling Just Happens
[edit]
I meant to edit a previous post with spoiler tags and for some reason I ended up posting a reply with the content spoilered.
Not my day in that respect...
[edit]
Spoiler tags applied.
I meant to edit a previous post with spoiler tags and for some reason I ended up posting a reply with the content spoilered.
Not my day in that respect...
[edit]
Spoiler tags applied.
Re: Mod: Levelling Just Happens
Spoilers follow for the Morrowind main quest:
- Spoiler: Show