add a preparation time

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Chris
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by Chris »

DestinedToDie wrote:Boots of Blinding Speed? You can cast a 100% magic resist for 1 second, then equip the boots for no negative effect. Nerf Boots of Blinding Speed?
I would argue yes, actually. IMO, the blind effect should be negated for as long as the magic resist is in effect, then applied when it's over since it's a constant effect (blindness is constantly being applied while wearing them, so when you're no longer resisting magic, why isn't it blinding you? it's like being able to swim in lava because you had 100% fire resist for one second when you dipped your toe in).

I know nothing will ever be done about it though, because the 100% magic resist for one second to nullify the blind and get super speed boots early on is a time-honored tradition of Morrowind players, but that's how I feel about it from a design standpoint.
You walk tediously slow at early levels. Engine error?
No, because the player speed attribute is defined and handled in the esm. The player speed can be set to non-tedious levels by making a game use the desired values, or by making a mod. However, the interaction between (fortify) intelligence and alchemy, and the uncontrolled feedback effect created by it, is the engine. There is no way for a game to avoid it, nor any way for a mod to change it.
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DestinedToDie
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by DestinedToDie »

Chris wrote:I know nothing will ever be done about it though, because the 100% magic resist for one second to nullify the blind and get super speed boots early on is a time-honored tradition of Morrowind players, but that's how I feel about it from a design standpoint.
That´s just it. It´s a flaw in design rather than an outright bug.
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Pherim
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by Pherim »

Chris wrote:
DestinedToDie wrote:Boots of Blinding Speed? You can cast a 100% magic resist for 1 second, then equip the boots for no negative effect. Nerf Boots of Blinding Speed?
I would argue yes, actually. IMO, the blind effect should be negated for as long as the magic resist is in effect, then applied when it's over since it's a constant effect (blindness is constantly being applied while wearing them, so when you're no longer resisting magic, why isn't it blinding you? it's like being able to swim in lava because you had 100% fire resist for one second when you dipped your toe in).

I know nothing will ever be done about it though, because the 100% magic resist for one second to nullify the blind and get super speed boots early on is a time-honored tradition of Morrowind players, but that's how I feel about it from a design standpoint.
But the thing is, just because it cannot be considered an engine bug and this not something to "fix" by OpenMW itself, one of the reason why it is made is to allow greater modding possibilities, which at some point might mean that it will be possible to change these things by mods. Actually I believe it should already be possible even in the new engine to write a script that re-applies the blindness automatically once the resistance wears off. By the way, this is my personal solution to the problem: http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/43027/?

My mod makes them useful for traveling and fleeing, but not for combat itself, as they don't work at all if the player has his weapon drawn, his hands raised for casting or is sneaking. But it should not be difficult at all to change the script so that it gives the player constant blindness. In fact I might just try this, now that you've given me the idea. :D
(edit: alright, maybe it is not that easy... at least not if you want magic resistance to work. It is no problem giving the player complete, permanent blindness while he wears them, but it gets more complicated if the current magic resistance is going to have an effect.)
(edit2: I found a way... I need to create a number of abilities that set blindness to a level from 1-100 - ideally this would be 100 abilities, but I believe like 20 or even 10 might be enough - and then make the script check the player's current magic resistance and give him the according ability. It's just a little bit more work to write, but it works)

Morrowind has many flawed game mechanics like this. In fact, I consider the Tribunal assassin attacks to be game breaking if a new game is started with Tribunal installed. Still, it is the way it was designed and there are mods that change it.

Alright, I guess you can argue that this is just a strange way for constant magic effects to work, and that it would make more sense if they would work according to the current resistance at all times, and not just to the time the item was first equipped. And while it is possible to change this behavior for this particular case with a mod, it cannot be done for all effects at once, at least not to my knowledge. But OpenMW will make it possible at some point, but then as an optional feature, but not as part of the core engine.
Chris
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by Chris »

DestinedToDie wrote:That´s just it. It´s a flaw in design rather than an outright bug.
That's what a bug is... a flaw in design leading to improper behavior.
Pherim wrote:Actually I believe it should already be possible even in the new engine to write a script that re-applies the blindness automatically once the resistance wears off.
That would be pretty hacky, and have to have a script on each actor where this can occur (the player isn't the only one that can have a resist magic effect to temporarily resist constant effect effects; it's just that the player is the most likely actor for to happen to). It'd be pretty wasteful too to have a script running whose sole purpose to to watch for magic resist effects wearing off while wearing the Boots of Blinding Speed.

I'm also talking about this as a general design issue of how constant effects and resist magic interact, BTW, not just those Boots; they're just an obvious offender of it. And same as constant effects should reapply when wearing off, preexisting constant effects can be suppressed when magic resist is used.
Morrowind has many flawed game mechanics like this. In fact, I consider the Tribunal assassin attacks to be game breaking if a new game is started with Tribunal installed. Still, it is the way it was designed and there are mods that change it.
And that's ultimately the point. Ask the question, "can a mod/game properly prevent the bad behavior?" If the answer is "yes", then it's mod/game territory. If the answer is "no", then it's engine territory. If the answer is "it can be worked around with a hack", it's still indicative of being an engine flaw that games have to go out of their way to prevent.

The Tribunal assassin can be fixed properly by writing a new script that has better timing for the attack (there are mods that do this already; though you will still find people that don't like the fix and don't want it included in a fix compilation because they want early access to expensive top-tier gear regardless of how game breaking it is). But things like this cannot be fixed by mods, it is clearly an exploit in the engine mechanics to take owned items in front of NPCs without triggering the theft alert, so any mod/game that wants non-buggy theft handling is out of luck. Morrowind players seem to really love their exploits though, so a pox on anyone that wants more stable and polished behavior.
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Pherim
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by Pherim »

Pherim wrote:Actually I believe it should already be possible even in the new engine to write a script that re-applies the blindness automatically once the resistance wears off.
That would be pretty hacky, and have to have a script on each actor where this can occur (the player isn't the only one that can have a resist magic effect to temporarily resist constant effect effects; it's just that the player is the most likely actor for to happen to). It'd be pretty wasteful too to have a script running whose sole purpose to to watch for magic resist effects wearing off while wearing the Boots of Blinding Speed.
If you want to do it for every actor and every effect, I have to agree with you that this is something that can only be changed in the engine, and don't get me wrong, personally, I would find it great if this was done in OpenMW, but eventually, it will be possible to do it, just not in the 1.0 version, which is supposed to be a full replacement of the Morrowind engine, with all features, even the flawed ones. I mean that's part of what this is all about, making it possible to mod things that were unmoddable before. But in order to get there, there has to be a version 1.0, and the goal for that is to provide a gaming experience that is as close to vanilla as possible, where the same actions lead to the same results. They have to draw the line somewhere as to what is a bug that needs fixing and what is just questionable design that can be exploited by the player, but apart from that causes no issues with the game itself. And furthermore "fixing" things like this can possibly lead to new issues, and then we may never get to version 1.0.

And on a side note, I have managed to write a script that dynamically adjusts the blindness effect to the current resistance, but yes, I guess you can call it "hacky", as there is no way to manipulate the blindness effect directly with a script (at least as far as I know) but I had to work with a number of abilities that are applied and removed as the resistance changes. So yes, it is a workaround and not a fix, and it is certainly not as easy and convenient as I had originally hoped. :roll:
I'm also talking about this as a general design issue of how constant effects and resist magic interact, BTW, not just those Boots; they're just an obvious offender of it. And same as constant effects should reapply when wearing off, preexisting constant effects can be suppressed when magic resist is used.
I agree that this would be a good and logical way for it to work, but it would be a large deviation from the vanilla game mechanics and thus change the experience for the player. So once again, nothing for 1.0. But something I would love to see in a post-1.0 mod. I would definitely use it!
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AnyOldName3
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by AnyOldName3 »

One thing that could be done to keep everyone happy is (probably as a post-1.0 feature) add some way to flag magic effect scripts such that their effect will be recalculated whenever there's any change to any other magic effect on the same actor, and also another which causes any other magic effect on the same actor to be recalculated when that effect is applied or removed. Between these two abilities, it would be completely possible for a mod, or another OpenMW-based game to implement the 'sensible' behaviour (and then be published on the Morrowind Nexus as an OpenMW-only mod), while the engine in its default state, when given only vanilla Morrowind to work with, would recreate its arguably flawed mechanics exactly as Bethesda either intended or didn't.
Chris
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by Chris »

AnyOldName3 wrote:One thing that could be done to keep everyone happy is (probably as a post-1.0 feature) add some way to flag magic effect scripts such that their effect will be recalculated whenever there's any change to any other magic effect on the same actor, and also another which causes any other magic effect on the same actor to be recalculated when that effect is applied or removed.
The problem with that is that there's many effects that specify a randomized range, and that resistances work on a % chance. So if it recalculates such effects when another effect expires, it would end up randomly changing the magnitude and/or duration of other effects, and it would do another percentage check for an existing effect (which changes the actual chance).
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AnyOldName3
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by AnyOldName3 »

As it would be a change applied by a modder, not the engine, it could be done more intelligently than that. The modder would be applying the change to the magic effect's script, so would be free to add some extra state to it so that when it was 'recalculated', it would detect that it should be resuming where it left off, and then do something sensible. If the engine was applying the change automatically, it could very well end up breaking things, but this is being done by a (hopefully) intelligent modder, who can see what they're doing, and tweak stuff as necessary.
yshi
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Re: add a preparation time

Post by yshi »

While you can literally break the game with the alchemy/Fortify Intelligence loop (once you go somewhere beyond >1 year in-game the time drops off entirely, and the potion does nothing), this seems to me more of an "it's your own damn fault" sort of issue.

I'd liken it to the fact that water, when drunk in large enough quantities, will kill you. Is it possible? Sure. Did you have it coming when you drank 6L at a shot? Absolutely. Next time you have to throw up three or four times in order to keep chugging, maybe take pause.
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