RounIcarus wrote:31 Mar 2020, 18:30
lysol wrote:31 Mar 2020, 15:17
You're trying really hard, aren't you?
Let's see how you handle this thread you just started. I hope for your own sake you don't start a scene once more.
You have all totally missed the point, and you are punishing me for loving something that you claim to love but seem to totally hate...
You realize people have put literally tens of thousands, if not hundred thousands of hours into this? And yet you claim the developers are "hating" Morrowind?
The
only thing that was started the heated attacks in your thread was that AnyOldName3 (who is the one behind the shadows in the engine and a very respected member here, mind you) said (correctly so) that the lore of the Elder Scrolls has grown for each game. There wasn't one guy with the vision of the entire series from beginning to end, it began just as a small thing and the team built upon that foundation for each game. This is a fact, you can just read on how TES: Arena started out.
This argument (which was repeated a few times as you didn't want to hear it) somehow made you mad and you started attacking people here. We don't want aggressive people that are flaming other members here, but we gave you a chance by not banning you permanently. But again, you seem to try
really hard to get permanently banned by sending these PMs.
I will give you once last chance. But you're not playing nice right now.
Look, if having a dialogue is a bannable offense then there is something wrong here...
I just want to break this down very neatly so you can clearly understand exactly what happened... Then if you want to ban me you have no excuse for punishing me for other peoples aggression...
AnyOldName3
We've had many multi-page arguments in the past between people who disagree whether very specific behaviours are intentional and should be preserved as a masterpiece of game design, or they're bugs born of Bethesda's legendarily slap-dash software engineering that need to be purged before anyone else is exposed. I don't think there's a single mod out there that everyone would agree stays true to Bethesda's vision for the game. Different staff members had different visions for the game. Some wanted Daggerfall 2, some wanted D&D on the computer, some wanted what would now be called an action game, and at least one wanted to imagine hollowing out all the things that had ever scared him and building houses inside them.
Me
I dont care terribly about this or that mechanic, my concern is the lore itself. Morrowind is a very spelled out place with a very deep and thought out culture. I want Morrowind the place to be what it is supposed to be. Especially with the friction of the time. The struggle between houses, the long list of issues caused by Imperial occupation. The mass influx of foreigners from the rest of Tamriel. I just want to get lost in the beauty that all of Tamriel is supposed to be. Its like reading JRR Tolkiens books and wishing you could explore these places. Then you get LOTRO (which I tried recently) and you see how bastardized everything is. NO, I dont want garbage, I want the original vision of he who originally envisioned it...
AnyOldName3
The point I'm making is that Morrowind was made by a team with wildly different goals all pulling the project in different directions, so there's no single original vision. An aspect of the game that you feel is key might not have seemed particularly important to anyone working on it, and something else you don't care about might have been one of the developer's favourite aspects of the game.
Me
You totally missed the point of what im saying... I dont care about game mechanics, I said the original vision... The one guy who sat down and dreampt up Elder Scrolls. Someone had to sit down and have a fantasy at one point, thought up a race of elves that lived in a magical land... That first inception of what things are, thats what matters. The thing grew and evolved into the whole of Tamriel, I would imagine that each race was at least one persons fantasy, then they collaborated and everything eventually mishmashed together into the continent as we know it. Its that vision of story telling, that you have that moment of enlightenment where something beautiful manifests and you shape it into something wonderful. You keep getting stuck on game mechanics, that doesnt matter... Wandering the streets of a given settlement, understanding the history of the people who lived there. All the things they had to go through to get to this point. The bigger picture of the world around them. Stories... Thats what matters, the things that capture our imaginations, that let us live outside of the lives we are simply not satisfied with... When I join a guild, I want to feel like there is so much more going on then I can handle. Taking my jobs and doing them well. Not being the all important somebody that everybody relies on, but just another member that might become somebody over time. Settlements should morph and change slowly. You could be gone for two weeks and everything could be rearranged. Containers move around, people are missing, new people are around, two weeks later the old people are back, buildings get destroyed, new ones get built. Yearly events. Not all of it is practical from a coding stand point, but that should be the goal, making this place feel alive and able to change and grow. I dont want to get overly caught up on this or that programming whatever, its not about that, its a world of its own, thats what needs respect..."
See how that all fits together? He got lost in the nuts and bolts, I stated plainly that I only care about the story telling. What I mean by original vision. Is someone sitting down and inventing the Dunmer, their homeland, the history of the homeland... Thats the original vision. Thats the whole point for why we fell in love with this game to begin with, its an awe inspiring place to visit...
I was clear, intelligent, and respectful. In comes third person shooting his mouth off...
lambda
"Totally missed"? The *first sentence* of the quote you produced says and I quote:
The point I'm making is that Morrowind was made by a team with wildly different goals all pulling the project in different directions, so there's no single original vision.
AnyOldName3 is saying that what you are looking after never existed in the first place. He is not missing the point. And not only there never was such an original vision, why would you expect that modders would stay faithful to that vision, even apart from the fact that there is no consensus on what said vision consists in exactly? And if you think there was ever such a thing as an "original vision", then it is incumbent upon you to explain it exactly so that people might have a shot at helping you, otherwise, well, people *will* miss your point completely and it is unfair to criticize them for their missed attempts at being helpful.
As far as your question, contrary to other people in the thread, I am going to be unapologetically blunt: give up. If you have such a low threshold for frustration, if you are looking for something that never existed in the first place and that you yourself cannot describe exactly, if you seemingly do not even know that MCP and MWSE are incompatible with OpenMW (this is not exactly a piece of arcane, esoteric knowledge, but rather the *first* thing one has to face when switching to OpenMW), you are in for a world of pain. I (almost) hope you do not follow my advice, but this is my attempt at being helpful.
Look at this garbage...
And not only there never was such an original vision, why would you expect that modders would stay faithful to that vision.
I had just made a vast post explaining what I was talking about, that all I care about is story telling... "Why would you expect that modders would stay faithful to that vision" If you dont like the game, why are you playing it? Vvardenfell, Dunmer, Empire, Great houses... why would modders stay faithful to that? Thats a plain statement that you just dont care about what Morrowind is... Its like having an avengers movie while excluding any of the avengers from appearing in it... Might as well just put looney toons clones all over Balmora... Who cares about Morrowind...
All lamda did was piss on the very point that I so carefully clearly pointedly made.
I am going to be unapologetically blunt: give up. If you have such a low threshold for frustration, if you are looking for something that never existed in the first place and that you yourself cannot describe exactly, if you seemingly do not even know that MCP and MWSE are incompatible with OpenMW (this is not exactly a piece of arcane, esoteric knowledge, but rather the *first* thing one has to face when switching to OpenMW), you are in for a world of pain. I (almost) hope you do not follow my advice, but this is my attempt at being helpful.
Do you condone this hateful behavior? Lets break this down bit by bit...
I am going to be unapologetically blunt: give up
Fuck me... That statement alone should have gotten him a two week ban, not me... Do you see how lopsided that is?
If you have such a low threshold for frustration, if you are looking for something that never existed in the first place and that you yourself cannot describe exactly
Dude... Count it up... One block of text, seventeen lines solid... Described exactly... He didnt even read what I had just posted, yet he lambasted me with the hatred of a hundred blood drinking savages... Seriously... This guys is pure hatred... What the hell did I ever say above to warrant such vitriol? My response was very well measured compared to what would have been quite proportionate.
Me
Dude, I got through the first two lines of your post and all I can see is flaming... Reread what I said... You BOTH totally missed the point... Which came first, the story or the game? "why would you expect that modders would stay faithful to that vision" Because violating canon is now you kill a franchise dude... Im not going to argue common sense with you... Figure it out...
I got just a little bombastic, could have worded it better... But what is the principle point here...
Which came first, the story or the game?
Of course the story came first... It would be criminally irresponsible to take investor money and begin coding on a project without actually knowing what that project is in totality before you began... You cant build a house without a blue print... You have to have some kind of fundamental base line for what you are doing before you start doing it... No company would ever be so irresponsible as to start a project blindly like that... This whole following argument is intellectually dishonest...
AnyOldName3
The game came first. Arena was originally just supposed to be you versus another guy or monster having a fight to the death in a colosseum type thing. The setting was tacked onto it as context for why you were doing the arena fights that gave the game its name, and then an overworld was added so you could actually encounter the setting, and then some story was added on to explain why the game was suddenly not about arena fights any more. I don't think any of the people who designed the story and setting for Arena were still around when Morrowind was being made, and even people who deeply cared about the lore of Daggerfall were in the minority. Every Elder Scrolls game has violated the canon of its predecessor in some way, and each one had sold better than the last, so it's hardly killed the franchise.
Why the hell is he bringing up Arena? Were talking about Morrowind... Somehow Arena being made before Morrowind means that Morrowind was made before the island of Vvardenfell was envisioned? What? How the hell does that make sense? Like I said, they totally missed the point... AnyOldName3 kept going on and on about mechanics... I said its not mechanics, its story, therefore we need to bring up a totally different game that has nothing to do with what were talking about...
You totally missed the point of what im saying... I dont care about game mechanics, I said the original vision... The one guy who sat down and dreampt up Elder Scrolls. Someone had to sit down and have a fantasy at one point, thought up a race of elves that lived in a magical land... That first inception of what things are, thats what matters. The thing grew and evolved into the whole of Tamriel, I would imagine that each race was at least one persons fantasy, then they collaborated and everything eventually mishmashed together into the continent as we know it.
See? Five lines of detailed explanation... Its on the thread, you cant ignore the actual exchange... This is what really happened... First I get flamed by lamba, then AnyOldName3 builds on that flaming by going off topic... Thats some pretty hard core aggression dude...
So I shoot this back, still collected, a bit explosive, but nowhere near as hateful as lamda...
Dude, 90% of the lore is never took place in a game. So how does the game come first when there are thousands of years of history and tales of far away lands. Tell me, why would Akavir be mentioned at all if for six games, you never go there... You never see races from there... Its a whole continent with its own peoples and history. Why make that a part of canon if you never intended to make a game out of it?
BECAUSE THE STORY CAME FIRST!!! YOU DONT HAVE A PURPOSE IN MAKING A GAME UNLESS YOU HAVE A PRE ESTABLISHED NARRATIVE!! USE COMMON SENSE!
Its self explanatory... Yes, I got angry... But every last word of it is crystal clear... This really was the point for them to back off... I beat them over the head that the primary point for having the thread is for the story. I said it over and over... They had no excuse for missing the point, then doubling down on its over and over, no excuse at all...
Then we have number four who comes in starting shit... Time4Tea
RounIcarus wrote: ↑
28 Feb 2020, 16:12
So how does the game come first when there are thousands of years of history and tales of far away lands.
You know those thousands of years of history are just imaginary, right? That never actually happened ...
RounIcarus wrote: ↑
28 Feb 2020, 16:12
Tell me, why would Akavir be mentioned at all if for six games, you never go there... You never see races from there... Its a whole continent with its own peoples and history. Why make that a part of canon if you never intended to make a game out of it?
Presumably, because they wanted to flesh out the backstory of the setting by describing some far-off places that it was never intended for the player to actually visit? For the same reason they would come up with the afore-mentioned thousand year history, even though the player would never start at year zero and play through all of it? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make - there is no reason why background about distant places or historical events couldn't be added or expanded after the release of the original game.
From the Wikipedia article about the development of Elder Scrolls: Arena:
Although the team had dropped all arena combat from the end game, because all the material had already been printed up with the title, the game went to market as The Elder Scrolls: Arena. The team came up with a lore-friendly explanation for this, being because the Empire of Tamriel was so violent, it had been nicknamed the Arena. It was Lakshman who came up with the idea of "The Elder Scrolls", and though, in the words of Peterson, "I don't think he knew what the hell it meant any more than we did", the words eventually came to mean "Tamriel's mystical tomes of knowledge that told of its past, present, and future." The game's initial voice-over was changed in response, beginning: "It has been foretold in the Elder Scrolls ..."
Yep, seems like they gave some serious forethought to the canonical fantasy setting planning right there. However, it's all grown into something vibrant and wonderful, through being expanded and built on by some very creative people through the later games.
Are you kidding me?
You know those thousands of years of history are just imaginary, right? That never actually happened ...
How is this not an attack? For real? Its just imaginary? WHY DID HE MAKE A PROFILE ON THIS WEBSITE? Why? This asshole clearly doesnt give a damn about the source material... Never mind staying on topic for the thread, this asshole is deliberately stirring shit... There is no excuse for saying something like that... Then again, he keeps bringing up arena, just like the rest of them... Going wildly off topic to make a point that doesnt exist... Compounding compounding compounding... Do you see how I would be insulted when you called this disagreement a 'debate'? there isnt a debate... For you to call this a debate means you just arent paying attention... Lets just get real here...
Here is my response... And at the end of it, I say, go away, I tell them to leave my thread, I tell them they have missed the point, that they are causing trouble, that they need to leave... Thats totally appropriate... They are 100% in the wrong... You cant ignore the actual post history...
"You know those thousands of years of history are just imaginary, right? That never actually happened ..." Right, because this game is imaginary, it never actually happened... Thats why we spend hour after hour playing it and countless hours modding it... Because it doesnt actually exist... That "imaginary history" is vastly responsible for this "imaginary game" to have every last circumstance occur exactly the way it did...
Why are you only talking about Arena? Were here talking about Morrowind... The basis for your whole argument about Morrowind is that Arena blah blah blah... You take things away from the central point because you are a tactical liar... I know that political tactic myself, distract from the main point so you can win a distracted argument... I know what you are doing...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Five ... _Wulfharth This was a book in Morrowind, It mentions Alduin... Its the backstory for SKYRIM released WAY BACK WHEN MORROWIND WAS! They already knew what was going to happen because the original story tellers had already thought things through... You keep pointing at things that dont matter. Frankly, why are you even here? I am here to talk about mods, and all you want to do is flame the thread... Why dont all you trolls take your nonsense out of here?
To this point I did everything possible to be well mannered and self controlled... But each time I tried to be reasonable they just doubled down again, attacking, going off topic, stirring shit just because they could...
AnyOldName3
No one agrees with your description of how this thread went. Please try reviewing it while working under the assumption that no one was acting maliciously. You initially asked for things fulfilling criteria other people don't believe can be satisfied without more/different information, and every attempt to get some clarification from you has been met by you repeating the same request for things in line with something other people don't believe exists, and asserting that it does, despite evidence to the contrary, and bringing up orthogonal subjects as explanations for why the evidence wasn't evidence. Even if you still maintain that there was a single immutable vision for Morrowind, once it became clear that no one else here knew what it was, things would have gone much more smoothly had you described what you thought it was rather than continuing to insist everyone else should know what you were talking about.
Thats the problem with records... All I have to do is point to them...
No one agrees with your description of how this thread went. Please try reviewing it while working under the assumption that no one was acting maliciously.
hmm...
I am going to be unapologetically blunt: give up.
hmm...
And not only there never was such an original vision, why would you expect that modders would stay faithful to that vision
hmm...
You know those thousands of years of history are just imaginary, right? That never actually happened ...
hmm... psi29a
the only person who seems to be flaming here is you my friend.
NOPE! no one being malicious here... As much as these guys want to deny reality, they cant deny records...
that last post by AnyOldName3 is totally dishonest... You have everything above... All broken down in a clean and orderly fashion...
and every attempt to get some clarification from you has been met by you repeating the same request for things in line with something other people don't believe exists and asserting that it does
Ok, people dont believe that Vvardenfell exists... They dont believe that Dunmer exist, they dont believe that the empire exists... They dont believe the great houses exist... None of the primary story elements of Morrowind exist... None of it... They have no evidence whatsoever... I bet they never even played the game before... Thats how profoundly ignorant they are...
despite evidence to the contrary
Evidence to the contrary? What part of the game doesnt have a primary narrative? What evidence do they have that Dagoth Ur doesnt exist? That the ashlanders dont have a prophecy? You cant disprove that the game has a story attached to it... Its bombastically stupid...
Even if you still maintain that there was a single immutable vision for Morrowind, once it became clear that no one else here knew what it was, things would have gone much more smoothly had you described what you thought it was rather than continuing to insist everyone else should know what you were talking about
HOLY SHIT! SEVENTEEN LINES OF TEXT ISNT ENOUGH? Seriously... How can the story of the game not be self explanatory... I was very plain, in long posts, one after the other... Either these people werent paying attention at all, or they are all criminally incompetent... Holy shit... Look at all of this... Clean cut...
You tell me I cant handle a debate? These bumbling fools dont even know what planet their on... The sheer idiotic stupidity and the end here... Good grief... Its like they have no memory whatsoever...
Simply put... You cant deny records... These are accurate quotes that you can review... If you choose to ban me now... Then you have to answer to God... You cant punish me for pointing out the truth... You cant punish me when I was absolutely in the right 100% of the time... The evidence proves itself...
What say you?
