Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...
Posted: 16 Sep 2016, 13:42
Welcome aboard.
Welcome aboard.
I'd like to see them bring back the massive world. This enabled other things like a proper time scale and realistic travel times (Vivec should be more than a couple hours walk from Seyda Neen...), more realistic disease progression (if you're never that far from a town with healing, to say nothing of any cures you may have on you, they'd have to progress stupidly fast to be a concern), and timed quests with "realistic" timing (if it only takes you a little bit to get to a short dungeon and back, an effective time limit would have to be stupidly short). That latter part also means you're generally focusing on a single quest at a time, rather than juggling dozens of quests at any given time and trying to make sure you do them as efficiently as possible. I like to feel like an adventurer making my way in the world, not a time management specialist.CMAugust wrote:I'm curious - what kind of philosophies from Daggerfall do you have in mind?
I presume you mean the language its being played in, since there are non-Engilsh versions of these games</pedantry>. In that case, I'd like to see someone try. Someone who's just playing it for the first time, doesn't listen to anyone speak and doesn't read anything, and see how far they can get. Obviously if said person has played it before, then it's not a fair complaint; if you're familiar with Morrowind, you can it without reading anything or listening to anyone either.vtastek wrote:You can play the entirety of Oblivion/Skyrim without knowing the English language.
Directions that were sometimes impossibly confusing, and sometimes outright wrong, and a shallow disposition system that can be easily overcome with some gold (doesn't matter who, everyone will accept a bribe and be your BFF). If they want me to go somewhere, know where it is, and I have a map, there is absolutely no reason they can't mark it down on my map, and not rely on cruddy directions and asking random NPCs. Additionally, giving directions when you have a randomized quest target location is not an easy problem to solve.First point has to do with directions, interestingly. Morrowind as a game, only told you the directions and that was coming from NPCs. You got other information from NPCs and the world. You were on your own and combined with disposition system, the two points I mentioned created a synergy of non-linearity. Making your own path in the world, in more than one level.
If you think newer TES games are like GTA or Far Cry, you must not be familiar with newer TES games, or GTA/Far Cry. They have similarities, mainly because they're all open world sandboxes which implies certain design principles regardless of what else they may be, but they are undeniably different.At this point, there is not much difference in TES from GTA or Far Cry. It is the setting and story heaviness that makes it resemble an RPG.
Or whatever language your game's in.You can play the entirety of Oblivion/Skyrim without knowing the English language.
Can't say I disagree, all that stuff would be fantastic to have, lol. However, I've been inclined to accept Bethesda's pivoting away from that design philosophy (moreso than questions of streamlining and accessibility) on account of its sheer technical impossibility, even with today's technology. But perhaps that's not true, and Bethesda could have taken a very different path than they did.Chris wrote:I'd like to see them bring back the massive world.
Yes. Procedural generation can do terrain and such (including lakes, rivers, streams, roads, etc) very well when properly tuned, especially when you have preexisting geography data to "sketch out" the gameworld with.CMAugust wrote:In your opinion, do you think the massive world in modern graphics is actually feasible?
I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it. It is so people could just pick it up and play even beyond a language barrier. Most games are like that, pick up and play. Only a select few requires more than that(RPGs?). There is nothing wrong with this where core gameplay is "pick up and play", I enjoyed my time in Skyrim(while not questing) similar to the fun I get out of my mindless GTA mayhem episodes. But is there more for those asking?I presume you mean the language its being played in, since there are non-Engilsh versions of these games</pedantry>. In that case, I'd like to see someone try. Someone who's just playing it for the first time, doesn't listen to anyone speak and doesn't read anything, and see how far they can get. Obviously if said person has played it before, then it's not a fair complaint; if you're familiar with Morrowind, you can it without reading anything or listening to anyone either.
Directions that were sometimes impossibly confusing, and sometimes outright wrong, and a shallow disposition system that can be easily overcome with some gold (doesn't matter who, everyone will accept a bribe and be your BFF). If they want me to go somewhere, know where it is, and I have a map, there is absolutely no reason they can't mark it down on my map, and not rely on cruddy directions and asking random NPCs. Additionally, giving directions when you have a randomized quest target location is not an easy problem to solve.
Could the system stand to be improved? Absolutely. But it would take more work, and they only have so much time to do the work they already need to do. You don't have to like or agree with their priorities, but to say it's a deliberate "dumbing down" of the series is off base.
GTA is different, you can fail in GTA. Well, they break the continuity after that. So you still can't fail. Such as the nature of a non-RPG. TES makes itself non-consequential instead. Far Cry is very close to TES now. Like I said, not much difference. (Skyrim was originally planned to include only radiant story quests!!! Then I could have claimed, "same as FC3". Fingers crossed for the next game. )If you think newer TES games are like GTA or Far Cry, you must not be familiar with newer TES games, or GTA/Far Cry. They have similarities, mainly because they're all open world sandboxes which implies certain design principles regardless of what else they may be, but they are undeniably different.
TES is still filled with plenty of stories, and the setting is exactly the same (the tone may be different, but in that regard I'd say Morrowind is the odd one out of the series with Oblivion being closest to the series' roots, and Skyrim being somewhere between Oblivion and Morrowind).
I question it. What exactly did they change to help the "idiots"? Not the quest markers, essential NPCs, and level scaling, which I've already explained why they were added ("idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with important NPCs inadvertently dying because the game's AI put them into combat with enemies they couldn't defeat, "idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with quest NPCs not being where they were expected because they were traveling to a different city on that day, or because they were stopping by an Inn after they closed shop before heading home, and "idiots" aren't the only people who have a problem with the higher levels being too easy).vtastek wrote:I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it.
Why laugh at "confusing wrong directions"? They certainly exist in the game. And like Jingles/SorcererDave said in his video I linked, even when the directions themselves are fine, not everyone is good with them. Has nothing to do with language or idiocy, some people simply don't have a mind for directions to reach a target, and work better by being shown the target and letting them find their own way there.I played Morrowind with a dictionary at hand, so I just laugh at "confusing wrong directions" claims. It was my first RPG and I was learning English. Come on... It was the most popular RPG for its time, people still play it. Isn't this OpenMW forums??? Are we superhumans or something? It is a perfectly fine game, very playable. Internet is full of LPs.
Would've been interesting. Bring it back to how it was like in Daggerfall, but with a more advanced system controlling how the quests were set up and built off each other (imagine you get married to an NPC of your choice, and join the Dark Brotherhood, and an otherwise radiant quest has you target your own spouse whoever it might've been, then depending on whether you do that or not, it changes some things about the quests you get afterward). Could've been pretty awesome actually.Skyrim was originally planned to include only radiant story quests!!!
In your opinion. Personally, I'd like TES to be more like Daggerfall to reach its potential. Which they have been doing a bit... Oblivion's Radiant AI giving NPCs schedules to make the world feel more alive and dynamic (with people leaving at night, shops closing, etc, like in Daggerfall, but in a more advanced way with people actually moving from place to place and locking doors and such), and Skyrim's Radiant Quests giving NPCs randomized quests/jobs for the player (like in Daggerfall, although as you noted, they really pulled back on this one so it's hard to see the potential it offered).TES is great, Morrowind is the odd one out. TES should be more like Morrowind to reach their potential.
Which they've admitted didn't work as they hoped. Again, not about "dumbing down"/"idiot-proofing" the dialog, they simply wanted to try something new, and they've admitted it didn't quite work (though it did have some good ideas, like remaining in control of your character while talking with them so you could continue to move around in real-time).I heard about the dialog system in FO4 and I moved on.
There are no idiots Chris. It was an idiom like dumbing down. A "defensive strategy" in design. As I said, nothing wrong with it. RPGs should be accessible. Bethesda came with wrong solutions to problems that should have been fixed "in the system". I thought it to be temporary but I found myself mistaken.Chris wrote:I question it. What exactly did they change to help the "idiots"? Not the quest markers, essential NPCs, and level scaling, which I've already explained why they were added ("idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with important NPCs inadvertently dying because the game's AI put them into combat with enemies they couldn't defeat, "idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with quest NPCs not being where they were expected because they were traveling to a different city on that day, or because they were stopping by an Inn after they closed shop before heading home, and "idiots" aren't the only people who have a problem with the higher levels being too easy).vtastek wrote:I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it.
I didn't say that. I didn't say that either. I am saying, people are greatly exaggerating the complexity of directions to a meme level. Humans aren't divided into those who can play Morrowind and those who can't.Yes, this is the OpenMW forums. Doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinions. I've also never said Morrowind isn't a good game, I still play it from time to time, too. But like any game, it has its flaws, and in the the context of the series, I find it the weakest in providing what I like about them. Just because someone enjoys Morrowind doesn't mean they have to think it's the greatest TES game ever.
Well, I envy your optimism. The reality, from what I have seen... So bad that they would have to scrap it all.Would've been interesting. Bring it back to how it was like in Daggerfall, but with a more advanced system controlling how the quests were set up and built off each other (imagine you get married to an NPC of your choice, and join the Dark Brotherhood, and an otherwise radiant quest has you target your own spouse whoever it might've been, then depending on whether you do that or not, it changes some things about the quests you get afterward). Could've been pretty awesome actually.
Those all sound like improvements to me. I am all for it. It is Bethesda failing once and never returning back to these issues. Maybe in 50 years?In your opinion. Personally, I'd like TES to be more like Daggerfall to reach its potential. Which they have been doing a bit... Oblivion's Radiant AI giving NPCs schedules to make the world feel more alive and dynamic (with people leaving at night, shops closing, etc, like in Daggerfall, but in a more advanced way with people actually moving from place to place and locking doors and such), and Skyrim's Radiant Quests giving NPCs randomized quests/jobs for the player (like in Daggerfall, although as you noted, they really pulled back on this one so it's hard to see the potential it offered).
Yeah I noticed the improvements, the writers can do improvements too.(4-way dialog flavor was a giant colossal waste, anyone could see that coming seriously!)Which they've admitted didn't work as they hoped. Again, not about "dumbing down"/"idiot-proofing" the dialog, they simply wanted to try something new, and they've admitted it didn't quite work (though it did have some good ideas, like remaining in control of your character while talking with them so you could continue to move around in real-time).