Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

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fragonard
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by fragonard » 16 Sep 2016, 13:42

vtastek wrote:
Also, hello world!
Spoiler: Show
Welcome aboard.

Chris
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Chris » 16 Sep 2016, 20:39

CMAugust wrote:I'm curious - what kind of philosophies from Daggerfall do you have in mind?
I'd like to see them bring back the massive world. This enabled other things like a proper time scale and realistic travel times (Vivec should be more than a couple hours walk from Seyda Neen...), more realistic disease progression (if you're never that far from a town with healing, to say nothing of any cures you may have on you, they'd have to progress stupidly fast to be a concern), and timed quests with "realistic" timing (if it only takes you a little bit to get to a short dungeon and back, an effective time limit would have to be stupidly short). That latter part also means you're generally focusing on a single quest at a time, rather than juggling dozens of quests at any given time and trying to make sure you do them as efficiently as possible. I like to feel like an adventurer making my way in the world, not a time management specialist.

A massive world also means players have more choice in what kind of regions they want to stay/live in, rather than each area only having a handful of quests which may send you all around the map, along more housing options, rather than one-house-per-city (or worse, only getting a set house through specific guilds), and a regional crime and banking system that makes sense.

On top of that, I'd like to see the large, labyrinthine dungeons, with randomized quests, come back. I like that feeling of not knowing where exactly I am in a dungeon, a quest target that can be anywhere, and having to find my way back out, not knowing if I can even retrace my steps. That feeling of finding your way back out after doing what you needed is just unparalleled. Skyrim did bring back the randomized quests as radiant quests/jobs you could ask for, but the variety was sorely lacking even compared to Daggerfall. I'd also like to see brought back enchantments that aren't automatically known to you, and instead have to get it identified if you don't want to risk using without knowing what it'll do (cursed items would be nice too, though I think Daggerfall only had like one of them).

Additionally, I'd want potions to be a rare treat again, not a corner store commodity where you're constantly carrying dozens and constantly running into more. Potion recipes could come back as well, needing to have the recipe with you to make something instead of inherently knowing what you can mix together because of your skill level (or being able to mix them because you the player know what to do, regardless of your character).

I'd like to see the religious guilds (temples, knightly orders) be individualized per deity again, rather than just having the overarching "Imperial Cult" or "Tribunal Temple" that encompasses multiple gods. And each guild having a unique boon (such as free inns for Fighters Guild members, or a blessing from a deity for your chosen temple), though I'd probably put them as a bonus you get when you gain standing within the guild, instead of automatically getting it when you join.

And finally, I'd want the old stamina system to come back. Rather than a bar that's constantly running out and filling up, you get a bar that runs out slowly over the course of a day or two, and doing strenuous actions makes it run out a bit faster. You need to sleep for several hours (or use the slower "Cautious" option for fast travel) to fully replenish it, and if it runs out, you pass out for an hour. If you pass out near enemies, you die.
vtastek wrote:You can play the entirety of Oblivion/Skyrim without knowing the English language.
I presume you mean the language its being played in, since there are non-Engilsh versions of these games</pedantry>. In that case, I'd like to see someone try. Someone who's just playing it for the first time, doesn't listen to anyone speak and doesn't read anything, and see how far they can get. Obviously if said person has played it before, then it's not a fair complaint; if you're familiar with Morrowind, you can it without reading anything or listening to anyone either.
First point has to do with directions, interestingly. Morrowind as a game, only told you the directions and that was coming from NPCs. You got other information from NPCs and the world. You were on your own and combined with disposition system, the two points I mentioned created a synergy of non-linearity. Making your own path in the world, in more than one level.
Directions that were sometimes impossibly confusing, and sometimes outright wrong, and a shallow disposition system that can be easily overcome with some gold (doesn't matter who, everyone will accept a bribe and be your BFF). If they want me to go somewhere, know where it is, and I have a map, there is absolutely no reason they can't mark it down on my map, and not rely on cruddy directions and asking random NPCs. Additionally, giving directions when you have a randomized quest target location is not an easy problem to solve.

Could the system stand to be improved? Absolutely. But it would take more work, and they only have so much time to do the work they already need to do. You don't have to like or agree with their priorities, but to say it's a deliberate "dumbing down" of the series is off base.
At this point, there is not much difference in TES from GTA or Far Cry. It is the setting and story heaviness that makes it resemble an RPG.
If you think newer TES games are like GTA or Far Cry, you must not be familiar with newer TES games, or GTA/Far Cry. They have similarities, mainly because they're all open world sandboxes which implies certain design principles regardless of what else they may be, but they are undeniably different.

TES is still filled with plenty of stories, and the setting is exactly the same (the tone may be different, but in that regard I'd say Morrowind is the odd one out of the series with Oblivion being closest to the series' roots, and Skyrim being somewhere between Oblivion and Morrowind).

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Svetomech
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Svetomech » 16 Sep 2016, 22:28

You can play the entirety of Oblivion/Skyrim without knowing the English language.
Or whatever language your game's in.

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DestinedToDie
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by DestinedToDie » 17 Sep 2016, 09:56

Seems like Zaric Zhakaron made another video where he mentions OpenMW, more in detail this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE3JI28I5EM

CMAugust
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by CMAugust » 17 Sep 2016, 13:18

On top of that, it appears over 20 hours of OpenMW stream footage has been uploaded to his channel.

I've not heard of this guy before, but I did raise my eyebrows at how many of his suggestions matched my own personal wishlist for OpenMW's future. :)
Chris wrote:I'd like to see them bring back the massive world.
Can't say I disagree, all that stuff would be fantastic to have, lol. However, I've been inclined to accept Bethesda's pivoting away from that design philosophy (moreso than questions of streamlining and accessibility) on account of its sheer technical impossibility, even with today's technology. But perhaps that's not true, and Bethesda could have taken a very different path than they did.

In your opinion, do you think the massive world in modern graphics is actually feasible? Or would they come with some sizable tradeoffs - and if so, what tradeoffs would you find acceptable?

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DestinedToDie
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by DestinedToDie » 17 Sep 2016, 13:34

Check out NoManSky. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aozqa_7PLhE

It's a modern game that uses procedural generation. The team focused almost exclusively on procedural generation, and it shows because the other game mechanics kinda suck. While not a good game, a good example of what a modern procedurally made game can realistically achieve.

Chris
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Chris » 17 Sep 2016, 18:34

CMAugust wrote:In your opinion, do you think the massive world in modern graphics is actually feasible?
Yes. Procedural generation can do terrain and such (including lakes, rivers, streams, roads, etc) very well when properly tuned, especially when you have preexisting geography data to "sketch out" the gameworld with.

I wouldn't even necessarily say No Man's Sky is a good example. While I'm sure it is on a technical level, on a more practical level it way over-extended itself... it has 18 quintillion planets and the game is based on you exploring, so it won't throw all the interesting and nice looking places at you early because it wants you to find them. By comparison, the whole of Tamriel done to-scale would only be a fraction of an earth-sized planet, so you can have procedural generation algorithms that don't have to spread out nearly as much. And with predefined topography and major settlement locations, along with a good travel system, it'd be a lot easier to make sure the player can find things to keep them engaged.

vtastek
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by vtastek » 17 Sep 2016, 19:36

I presume you mean the language its being played in, since there are non-Engilsh versions of these games</pedantry>. In that case, I'd like to see someone try. Someone who's just playing it for the first time, doesn't listen to anyone speak and doesn't read anything, and see how far they can get. Obviously if said person has played it before, then it's not a fair complaint; if you're familiar with Morrowind, you can it without reading anything or listening to anyone either.

Directions that were sometimes impossibly confusing, and sometimes outright wrong, and a shallow disposition system that can be easily overcome with some gold (doesn't matter who, everyone will accept a bribe and be your BFF). If they want me to go somewhere, know where it is, and I have a map, there is absolutely no reason they can't mark it down on my map, and not rely on cruddy directions and asking random NPCs. Additionally, giving directions when you have a randomized quest target location is not an easy problem to solve.

Could the system stand to be improved? Absolutely. But it would take more work, and they only have so much time to do the work they already need to do. You don't have to like or agree with their priorities, but to say it's a deliberate "dumbing down" of the series is off base.
I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it. It is so people could just pick it up and play even beyond a language barrier. Most games are like that, pick up and play. Only a select few requires more than that(RPGs?). There is nothing wrong with this where core gameplay is "pick up and play", I enjoyed my time in Skyrim(while not questing) similar to the fun I get out of my mindless GTA mayhem episodes. But is there more for those asking?

I played Morrowind with a dictionary at hand, so I just laugh at "confusing wrong directions" claims. It was my first RPG and I was learning English. Come on... It was the most popular RPG for its time, people still play it. Isn't this OpenMW forums??? Are we superhumans or something? It is a perfectly fine game, very playable. Internet is full of LPs.

There are those confused players but it is because they don't give the game the benefit of doubt("No the game actually comes with a physical map, it is missing from digital releases.", "No, the combat is not broken, there is a stat system. Check your stats.").

Disposition system is underrated, it could have been fleshed out but Bethesda removed it after their half-assed attempt in Oblivion. I think that was the biggest loss for TES. I strongly feel that is the line where you cross into RP territory(as a game).
If you think newer TES games are like GTA or Far Cry, you must not be familiar with newer TES games, or GTA/Far Cry. They have similarities, mainly because they're all open world sandboxes which implies certain design principles regardless of what else they may be, but they are undeniably different.

TES is still filled with plenty of stories, and the setting is exactly the same (the tone may be different, but in that regard I'd say Morrowind is the odd one out of the series with Oblivion being closest to the series' roots, and Skyrim being somewhere between Oblivion and Morrowind).
GTA is different, you can fail in GTA. :lol: Well, they break the continuity after that. So you still can't fail. Such as the nature of a non-RPG. TES makes itself non-consequential instead. Far Cry is very close to TES now. Like I said, not much difference. (Skyrim was originally planned to include only radiant story quests!!! Then I could have claimed, "same as FC3". Fingers crossed for the next game. :( )

TES is great, Morrowind is the odd one out. 8-) TES should be more like Morrowind to reach their potential. :idea:

15 years, no fix in sight. I heard about the dialog system in FO4 and I moved on. It is not in the cards for Beth to do something about anything I ask.

From my perspective, they deserve the success(they are good at open worlds) and the ridicule.

Chris
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by Chris » 17 Sep 2016, 21:05

vtastek wrote:I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it.
I question it. What exactly did they change to help the "idiots"? Not the quest markers, essential NPCs, and level scaling, which I've already explained why they were added ("idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with important NPCs inadvertently dying because the game's AI put them into combat with enemies they couldn't defeat, "idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with quest NPCs not being where they were expected because they were traveling to a different city on that day, or because they were stopping by an Inn after they closed shop before heading home, and "idiots" aren't the only people who have a problem with the higher levels being too easy).
I played Morrowind with a dictionary at hand, so I just laugh at "confusing wrong directions" claims. It was my first RPG and I was learning English. Come on... It was the most popular RPG for its time, people still play it. Isn't this OpenMW forums??? Are we superhumans or something? It is a perfectly fine game, very playable. Internet is full of LPs.
Why laugh at "confusing wrong directions"? They certainly exist in the game. And like Jingles/SorcererDave said in his video I linked, even when the directions themselves are fine, not everyone is good with them. Has nothing to do with language or idiocy, some people simply don't have a mind for directions to reach a target, and work better by being shown the target and letting them find their own way there.

Yes, this is the OpenMW forums. Doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinions. I've also never said Morrowind isn't a good game, I still play it from time to time, too. But like any game, it has its flaws, and in the the context of the series, I find it the weakest in providing what I like about them. Just because someone enjoys Morrowind doesn't mean they have to think it's the greatest TES game ever.
Skyrim was originally planned to include only radiant story quests!!!
Would've been interesting. Bring it back to how it was like in Daggerfall, but with a more advanced system controlling how the quests were set up and built off each other (imagine you get married to an NPC of your choice, and join the Dark Brotherhood, and an otherwise radiant quest has you target your own spouse whoever it might've been, then depending on whether you do that or not, it changes some things about the quests you get afterward). Could've been pretty awesome actually.
TES is great, Morrowind is the odd one out. 8-) TES should be more like Morrowind to reach their potential. :idea:
In your opinion. Personally, I'd like TES to be more like Daggerfall to reach its potential. Which they have been doing a bit... Oblivion's Radiant AI giving NPCs schedules to make the world feel more alive and dynamic (with people leaving at night, shops closing, etc, like in Daggerfall, but in a more advanced way with people actually moving from place to place and locking doors and such), and Skyrim's Radiant Quests giving NPCs randomized quests/jobs for the player (like in Daggerfall, although as you noted, they really pulled back on this one so it's hard to see the potential it offered).
I heard about the dialog system in FO4 and I moved on.
Which they've admitted didn't work as they hoped. Again, not about "dumbing down"/"idiot-proofing" the dialog, they simply wanted to try something new, and they've admitted it didn't quite work (though it did have some good ideas, like remaining in control of your character while talking with them so you could continue to move around in real-time).

vtastek
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Re: Guy on youtube starts a let's play with OpenMW...

Post by vtastek » 18 Sep 2016, 11:54

Chris wrote:
vtastek wrote:I am not the kind of person that would throw this "dumbing down" thing so easily but they made the games idiot proof. No question about it.
I question it. What exactly did they change to help the "idiots"? Not the quest markers, essential NPCs, and level scaling, which I've already explained why they were added ("idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with important NPCs inadvertently dying because the game's AI put them into combat with enemies they couldn't defeat, "idiots" aren't the only people that would have a problem with quest NPCs not being where they were expected because they were traveling to a different city on that day, or because they were stopping by an Inn after they closed shop before heading home, and "idiots" aren't the only people who have a problem with the higher levels being too easy).
There are no idiots Chris. It was an idiom like dumbing down. A "defensive strategy" in design. As I said, nothing wrong with it. RPGs should be accessible. Bethesda came with wrong solutions to problems that should have been fixed "in the system". I thought it to be temporary but I found myself mistaken.

High levels being easy is a balance problem. Level scaling is the easy way out.

NPCs traveling can be a great flavor to the stupid predictability of quests. Gandalf is not in the Prancing Pony. Now what?!

NPCs dying is a tragedy, again a missing flavor for the drama. Importance of NPCs is decided by quest writer's hubris. If the problem is in the AI, maybe fix the AI. We are talking about a decade+ here(protected status is new, also mostly unused).

Directions is not easy but decade+ is enough to change paradigms.

I hear these excuses for over a decade now, I am jaded.
Yes, this is the OpenMW forums. Doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinions. I've also never said Morrowind isn't a good game, I still play it from time to time, too. But like any game, it has its flaws, and in the the context of the series, I find it the weakest in providing what I like about them. Just because someone enjoys Morrowind doesn't mean they have to think it's the greatest TES game ever.
I didn't say that. I didn't say that either. I am saying, people are greatly exaggerating the complexity of directions to a meme level. Humans aren't divided into those who can play Morrowind and those who can't.
Would've been interesting. Bring it back to how it was like in Daggerfall, but with a more advanced system controlling how the quests were set up and built off each other (imagine you get married to an NPC of your choice, and join the Dark Brotherhood, and an otherwise radiant quest has you target your own spouse whoever it might've been, then depending on whether you do that or not, it changes some things about the quests you get afterward). Could've been pretty awesome actually.
Well, I envy your optimism. The reality, from what I have seen... So bad that they would have to scrap it all.

Hmm.
In your opinion. Personally, I'd like TES to be more like Daggerfall to reach its potential. Which they have been doing a bit... Oblivion's Radiant AI giving NPCs schedules to make the world feel more alive and dynamic (with people leaving at night, shops closing, etc, like in Daggerfall, but in a more advanced way with people actually moving from place to place and locking doors and such), and Skyrim's Radiant Quests giving NPCs randomized quests/jobs for the player (like in Daggerfall, although as you noted, they really pulled back on this one so it's hard to see the potential it offered).
Those all sound like improvements to me. I am all for it. It is Bethesda failing once and never returning back to these issues. Maybe in 50 years?
Which they've admitted didn't work as they hoped. Again, not about "dumbing down"/"idiot-proofing" the dialog, they simply wanted to try something new, and they've admitted it didn't quite work (though it did have some good ideas, like remaining in control of your character while talking with them so you could continue to move around in real-time).
Yeah I noticed the improvements, the writers can do improvements too.(4-way dialog flavor was a giant colossal waste, anyone could see that coming seriously!)

God, I am so jaded!!! :D

It is like other developers are saying "don't do it Beth, don't raise the bar." and Bethesda is the good guy playing it safe like them.

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