Morrowind confessions

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Chris
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Chris » 07 May 2016, 19:02

Vyrukas wrote:Skyrim always felt hollow to me, the first 10 or so hours were pretty fun before you found all the locations and burned through most of the content. The radiant quests and very linear dungeons/caves really sapped the fun out of the game for me at least.
The radiant quests and linear dungeon layouts are indeed a strong black mark against the game. It's sad that even Daggerfall's random quests have more variety and are more interesting than Skyrim's radiant quests, despite the former being 15 years older. The radiant quest system has a lot of potential though, which modders can tap into... same for the randomized road-side encounters you can get to keep things interesting while walking around the world. Things Morrowind can't have (maybe once OpenMW gets to a point where it can add the capability for them).

For dungeon design, I'm among the minority that strongly prefers the large sprawling labyrinthine layouts in Daggerfall. Yes, they made absolutely no sense when it came to realism, but it actually felt like you were exploring long lost areas, with a real sense of relief and accomplishment when you not only found what you were looking for, but also made it back out (Recall is for the weak :P). In that sense, I find Morrowind's dungeons among the poorest because they tend to be very short with little atmosphere (same exact music as being outside, bland lighting, and little to no ambient sound).
The base game was boring, so boring that I've never actually worked up the effort to finish the main quest.
Ironically, TES MQs and game interest seem to have an inverse relationship for me. I've beaten Morrowind's MQ twice (despite being my least favorite of the series), I've beaten Oblivion's and Skyrim's MQ once each (mostly just to say I did), and I've never beaten Daggerfall's MQ (despite being my favorite of the series). I attribute this to how I treat the MQ as the end game, that I only go for and beat it when I have little more I want to do with a character (yes I know the game doesn't end with the MQ, but beating the MQ still gives me a sense of closure to the adventure).

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Okulo
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Okulo » 08 May 2016, 16:04

I liked Daggerfall's large dungeons as well. It made it feel like there was some real history to the place, as if there used to be civilizations.

Another thing I could really appreciate about Daggerfall is the size of the towns. Sure, it was randomly generated, but I think there was some real potential there if Bethesda had continued developing into that direction... a randomly generated city that does not feel randomly generated would've been a huge boon to roleplaying. Much more than the tiny settlements we have now at least.

ezze
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by ezze » 08 May 2016, 16:07

Daggerfall was too slow for me. I remember hacking my Speed to 255 just be able to play... however, yes the cities were really great I agree with Okulo.

At the time I really thought the direction for the future of videogaming was a mix of randomly generated and humanly added. Imagine merge the Morrowind world in the Daggerfall generated one to get an idea...

Ferik
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Ferik » 08 May 2016, 23:21

I get bored with Daggerfall long before finishing it. I guess it doesn't matter because Elder Scrolls isn't really about finishing the Main Quest, but Daggerfall just wears on me after a while.

If I had to guess I think it's because of the relative sparseness of interesting NPCs, especially among the minor quest givers. Sure a lot of Morrowind's less important NPC's respond like a Wikia entry, but they tend to have a lot more visual flair, intentional placement, and they tend to feel at least a little unique. The ones that give quests on the other hand tend to be quite colorful for the most part which helps a lot.

On the flipside; Skyrim, though I thoroughly enjoyed it enough to put well over a hundred hours in it, had a problem where it felt like every character was expecting you to succeed and be special. They were generally unique and colorful, but they felt like they put too much importance on you. In Morrowind it felt like it was you against the world, struggling to prove yourself and make more allies as you worked your way towards becoming important. Power was achieved through hard work and adversity. Not that it necessarily wasn't in Skyrim, but it felt more like you were just being pulled along for the ride and propped up with power. It wasn't really a difference in structure, but it was a fundamental difference in presentation.

Also Skyrim refuses to slow down. Morrowind flat out tells you to go out adventuring and to slowly work your way through the main quest, and it has several parts where the main quest is thrown on the backburner as you're thrown into a non-linear sequence of objectives to complete before it'll pick back up. Skyrim's main quest is a linear sequence of events where the characters are constantly racing from one location to another and then they seemingly just wait around on their asses for you to show up but act like you had come straight there with them when you do. It all plays out like it should have taken a few days at most. Fallout 3 does the same thing and it irritates me as well, especially since the main quest there covers like 1/3rd of the map.

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psi29a
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by psi29a » 09 May 2016, 08:09

Okulo wrote:Another thing I could really appreciate about Daggerfall is the size of the towns. Sure, it was randomly generated, but I think there was some real potential there if Bethesda had continued developing into that direction... a randomly generated city that does not feel randomly generated would've been a huge boon to roleplaying. Much more than the tiny settlements we have now at least.
This! This is the reason why I started the WorldEngine project... we'll get there eventually. :)

Antsan
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Antsan » 09 May 2016, 17:21

Vyrukas wrote: The problem with Skyrim and Fallout4 is that they're both simplified and marketed towards a more casual audience to such a degree that making interesting additions is very hard to do. In Skyrim you still have to deal with the limited amount of attack animations the game which prevents adding new kinds of weapons you also have to deal with the completely gutted magic system and the lack of skills.
I think the "lack of skills" is not really a hindrance to good mods. How do more skills help with modding interesting content or mechanics? To me it seems they just cut out a lot of superficial skills that were basically just padding. I do kind of miss Medium Armor and Acrobatics, but that's it. The rest of the skills that were gutted are filler.

Regarding animations: Don't know, don't care. The same goes for new kinds of weapons. Having mods for weapons seems kind of… boring. See later.

Yes, many mods make out of Skyrim something that it should have been all along. I don't see the problem with that – in the end I get an awesome game, and one that shows much more potential than Morrowind does, mechanically speaking. Something like Frostfall, Immersive Patrols or Civil War Overhaul simply wouldn't be possible in Morrowind, as far as I can tell. Even worse, the interface itself restricts modding severely.
The problem lies, of course, in the storytelling and the relatively usual landscapes and architecture. Morrowind's biggest boon for me is how utterly alien it is and that is missing in Skyrim, although not as much as in Oblivion, so that's good.

The loss of magic engineering is kind of sad, yes. I think they abandoned it because it isn't that interesting the way it was in Morrowind and making it interesting is kind of… hard. Actually, the alchemy system suffers from the same problem. Simply matching up strings doesn't seem like alchemy at all. Experimentation is absolutely straightforward, and that problem is not new in Skyrim.
The enchanting system in Skyrim makes more sense to me. Having to destroy some magic weapon to then realize that the weapon you are going to create yourself is going to be inferior… That's hardly "dumbing down".

In short: Morrowind's mechanics are full of cruft and they have cut down on that. Cutting away complexity that doesn't really add meaningful choices to the game is a good thing when you're making a game, and when making a simulation additional complexity only helps when the rules are actually interacting with each other. That isn't the case in Morrowind – or how does having "Short Blades" and "Long Blades" interact with anything else in any meaningful way at all? That I can use less weapons on a given playthrough? Doesn't seem worth the hassle, as the choice of which weapon to use is as boring in Morrowind as it is in Skyrim or Oblivion. You look at the stats and that's it. Reducing the number or weapon skills only mean you now have to decide between two skills in the beginning instead of choosing between however many there were in Morrowind.
Ferik wrote: On the flipside; Skyrim, though I thoroughly enjoyed it enough to put well over a hundred hours in it, had a problem where it felt like every character was expecting you to succeed and be special. They were generally unique and colorful, but they felt like they put too much importance on you. In Morrowind it felt like it was you against the world, struggling to prove yourself and make more allies as you worked your way towards becoming important. Power was achieved through hard work and adversity. Not that it necessarily wasn't in Skyrim, but it felt more like you were just being pulled along for the ride and propped up with power. It wasn't really a difference in structure, but it was a fundamental difference in presentation.

Also Skyrim refuses to slow down. Morrowind flat out tells you to go out adventuring and to slowly work your way through the main quest, and it has several parts where the main quest is thrown on the backburner as you're thrown into a non-linear sequence of objectives to complete before it'll pick back up. Skyrim's main quest is a linear sequence of events where the characters are constantly racing from one location to another and then they seemingly just wait around on their asses for you to show up but act like you had come straight there with them when you do. It all plays out like it should have taken a few days at most. Fallout 3 does the same thing and it irritates me as well, especially since the main quest there covers like 1/3rd of the map.
Yeah, that is definitely true. Being treated as special is really annoying and having other people talk about time but practically ignore it is really damn immersion breaking.

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Okulo
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Okulo » 09 May 2016, 21:40

Ferik wrote:Skyrim . . . had a problem where it felt like every character was expecting you to succeed and be special.
What made this worse was that you really didn't had any other option. It was usually either succeed, die or just walk away. The Dark Brotherhood introduction was one of the exceptions to that, which made it jump out at me immediately.
Ferik wrote:In Morrowind it felt like it was you against the world, struggling to prove yourself and make more allies as you worked your way towards becoming important. Power was achieved through hard work and adversity. Not that it necessarily wasn't in Skyrim, but it felt more like you were just being pulled along for the ride and propped up with power. It wasn't really a difference in structure, but it was a fundamental difference in presentation.
I always like to phrase it like this: In Skyrim you are the hero. In Morrowind you become the hero. There's much more character growth in that.
Ferik wrote:Also Skyrim refuses to slow down.
You'll probably like Super Bunnyhop's take on the main quests.

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raevol
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by raevol » 10 May 2016, 00:21

Okulo wrote:You'll probably like Super Bunnyhop's take on the main quests.
Holy hell, is that depth of field thing in Skyrim a mod, or did they actually add that awful mess to the game?

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Capostrophic
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by Capostrophic » 10 May 2016, 01:02

raevol wrote:Holy hell, is that depth of field thing in Skyrim a mod, or did they actually add that awful mess to the game?
I don't know how could you think that about Bethesda. :?

Basically speaking, yes, it's a mod. It's called ENBseries (read: russian MGE not for Morrowind). But. But... such DoF's not actually ENBseries fault at all, it's a result of actions of a miserable preset-creator.

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raevol
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Re: Morrowind confessions

Post by raevol » 10 May 2016, 01:56

Capostrophic wrote:it's a result of actions of a miserable preset-creator.
Hmm, ok. Interesting.

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