Vulkan support

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Svetomech
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by Svetomech » 14 Feb 2017, 20:52

lysol wrote:Optional or not, it makes no sense to stop developing an engine to become more graphically advanced because one guy has a 6 year old laptop.
I don't see where these complaints are even coming from. My laptop is 6 years old, and on top of that - it is a shitty one. But I still managed to get it to support Vulkan. So, you either do that or you buy a new hardware, it's that simple. IMO.

raven
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by raven » 14 Feb 2017, 22:04

Svetomech wrote:
lysol wrote:Optional or not, it makes no sense to stop developing an engine to become more graphically advanced because one guy has a 6 year old laptop.
I don't see where these complaints are even coming from. My laptop is 6 years old, and on top of that - it is a shitty one. But I still managed to get it to support Vulkan. So, you either do that or you buy a new hardware, it's that simple. IMO.
I find this attitude weird, given that current omw version still supports a fixed function rendering path. And now you are expecting people to upgrade their hardware to be able to run a 15 years old game? Why not recommend them to stick with the original game then?

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lysol
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by lysol » 15 Feb 2017, 00:10

If people aren't upgrading their hardware, then a new engine isn't really needed.

But relax, older hardware will probably still be supported in the future. I just don't want the "support old machines" argument be used to stop developing the graphics further.
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SquireNed
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by SquireNed » 15 Feb 2017, 06:18

Another thing to remember is that some of the reason why older machines won't be a focus of development is that, simply, they eventually lose market share, especially in the consumer market.

I'm on track to have a two-year life cycle for my devices, if I'm lucky and nothing breaks down. I try to alternate between laptop and desktop, so at worst my newest device of any form factor I use is four to five years old. OpenMW aims to support that window just fine; I can run OpenMW on my old laptop (that is about six years old, but was a decent gaming rig), or my most recent desktop (~3-4 years old, I think, though it's been helped along by some hardware upgrades), or my current laptop (which I got back in November and was bleeding edge then).

OpenMW supports my entire cycle: back-up computer, last computer, current computer. Yes, I spend more on computers than the average consumer (at least per-unit), and I get pretty hefty rigs, but they're all going to be able to give me the Morrowind experience now (and my last computer to super-happily run old-school Morrowind bit the dust before that current back-up laptop came into my possession).

However, it's not entirely savvy to say that OpenMW should never stop supporting systems it has supported at a point along its development. If, say, Vulkan had decided not to come to Intel/Nvidia laptop chipsets prior to the 700 series, then that shouldn't necessarily be an automatic deal-breaker for Vulkan. DirectX, which is OS family dependent, is another story, but the truth of the matter is that the goal for OpenMW should be to anticipate and create the best quality for the largest market share. If someone wants to run it on a Raspberry Pi, more power to them, but it shouldn't be designed with a philosophy of "We want it to run perfectly on a $35 ARM board", because that's not the main target audience. If it does, that's a happy accident, but OpenMW wants to develop an engine that runs games on the sort of environments that games tend to be run; not fifteen-year-old business computers but rather average household consumer computers, which means that you support everything from low-end to high-end specifications but don't necessarily put a whole lot of effort catering to either.

TL;DR: It's not worth sabotaging the general development of OpenMW to ensure that Morrowind can be experienced on everything from the machines that once ran it to the current generations of hardware. If there are systems that can't handle Vulkan somewhere in that decade+ gap, that's not necessarily a great reason not to use Vulkan; the reason OpenMW is being made is because systems don't last forever and modernization is needed for compatibility going forward.

(Postscript): I believe that Vulkan will be more portable and more reliable than OpenGL and/or DirectX going forward, from a multi-architecture perspective, and I expect to see it play a role in having OpenMW make the transition from full-fledged x86 desktops to more versatile systems. I want to see Morrowind played like the original DOOM, where people can run it on an ATM if so inclined. OpenGL right now doesn't offer a unified platform for that.

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psi29a
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by psi29a » 15 Feb 2017, 09:36

SquireNed wrote:If someone wants to run it on a Raspberry Pi, more power to them, but it shouldn't be designed with a philosophy of "We want it to run perfectly on a $35 ARM board", because that's not the main target audience. If it does, that's a happy accident, but OpenMW wants to develop an engine that runs games on the sort of environments that games tend to be run; not fifteen-year-old business computers but rather average household consumer computers, which means that you support everything from low-end to high-end specifications but don't necessarily put a whole lot of effort catering to either.
Not an if, it does work on RPi, I made sure of that. ;) RPi's VC4 is OpenGL 2.1 (with some 2.2 bits thrown in). It 'might' get vulkan support, but that is up to Eric Anholt for when and if that will come.

So while RPi is not a target device, so long as there are developers willing to support it in the background then you'll have it. :)

Device support hangs on interested developers and their available bandwidth. If you want it to work on your platform, then either do it yourself, convince someone or pay someone to do it for you. :)

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Svetomech
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Re: Vulkan support

Post by Svetomech » 15 Feb 2017, 12:49

raven wrote:And now you are expecting people to upgrade their hardware to be able to run a 15 years old game?
Or, as I said, just get your machine to work with Vulkan (if OpenMW is ever gonna make that switch - until then it's all just small talk). Mine has Intel HD 4000, and it still runs Vulkan perfectly fine.

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