Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

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NullCascade
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by NullCascade » 01 Aug 2018, 11:40

Equinox wrote:
31 Jul 2018, 22:29
I think it is more about fear.
The redundancy of MWSE mods is directly proportional to the advancement of OpenMW.
Drop in and actually hear the concerns and disappointments modders have about OpenMW. More OpenMW developers should communicate with mod developers.
Br0ken wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 11:29
Equinox wrote:
31 Jul 2018, 22:29
The redundancy of MWSE mods is directly proportional to the advancement of OpenMW.
As I understand, Lua support in OpenMW can give us some compability with MWSE2 scripts. Am I wrong?
I'll try to give as much MWSE APIs as I can to help solve modder headaches as they try to support two engines. Though OpenMW will have its own quirks that aren't in Morrowind, and Morrowind will have its own quirks that aren't in OpenMW. And MWSE-Lua gives a lot more low level access than OpenMW will (like scene graph manipulation and custom GUIs, which the post-1.0 design doc argues against giving to modders).
MWSE 2.x lead.

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Br0ken
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by Br0ken » 01 Aug 2018, 12:40

NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 11:40
More OpenMW developers should communicate with mod developers.
Agree. And as i know, they open to dialogue.
But most of modders now just waiting 1.0 release with functional OpenMW-CS.
NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 11:40
I'll try to give as much MWSE APIs as I can to help solve modder headaches as they try to support two engines. Though OpenMW will have its own quirks that aren't in Morrowind, and Morrowind will have its own quirks that aren't in OpenMW. And MWSE-Lua gives a lot more low level access than OpenMW will (like scene graph manipulation and custom GUIs, which the post-1.0 design doc argues against giving to modders).
Maybe better to expand an open source engine than closed source? Post-1.0 doc is not the final version.
MWSE is wonderful project, but it may have own limitations, because Morrowind engine.

Well, I hope that both sides will come to a compromise and we'll see a bright future of Morrowind modding. 8-)

NullCascade
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by NullCascade » 01 Aug 2018, 14:20

Br0ken wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 12:40
Maybe better to expand an open source engine than closed source? Post-1.0 doc is not the final version.
MWSE is wonderful project, but it may have own limitations, because Morrowind engine.

Well, I hope that both sides will come to a compromise and we'll see a bright future of Morrowind modding. 8-)
Eventually I will. I originally was going to contribute to OpenMW, but its dev environment was terrible on Windows and after a decade of waiting it still hadn't produced any significant new modding opportunities. Since taking over MWSE we have new save systems, enhanced pursuit, custom UIs, quick loot, mod config menus, weapon/shield sheathing, new mechanics for attributes, new combat mechanics, Window Glow replacements that are more compatible and performant than any mwscript mod can create, new skill categories, and more things that were never possible. I've gotten way more bang from my buck, so to speak, working on MWSE. I want to create and play with cool new mods. OpenMW doesn't let me do that yet, and wouldn't for some time even if I contributed to it. There's still quite a few years left before I think it'll be time to transition to OpenMW. Besides, the original engine limitations aren't as big as people think. We've dehardcoded so much already in the past 6 months.
MWSE 2.x lead.

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Br0ken
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by Br0ken » 01 Aug 2018, 15:59

NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 14:20
I originally was going to contribute to OpenMW, but its dev environment was terrible on Windows and after a decade of waiting it still hadn't produced any significant new modding opportunities.
Devs mostly on Linux, so it often impact on Windows-specific bug fixing. But this situation was improved for now.
OpenMW survived full C++ rewrite in 2010, switching to OSG in 2015 and leaving of core developers (Nicolay Korslund, Scrawl). And it's alive, although it definitely needs more active developers...
Significant new modding opportunities? OpenMW only recently has feature parity with Morrowind, so needs more time to do it (and more love to OpenMW-CS).
NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 14:20
Besides, the original engine limitations aren't as big as people think. We've dehardcoded so much already in the past 6 months.
Cool, but MWSE is extension over closed source engine, after all. You cannot dehardcode it all.
You're doing a fantastic job, that's why I hope to see you as OpenMW dev.

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akortunov
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 01 Aug 2018, 20:47

NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 11:40
More OpenMW developers should communicate with mod developers.
I still can not get two things:
1. Who are "OpenMW developers", since OpenMW is OSS project.
Any contributors? Persons with the write access to OpenMW repository?
2. What "communicate with mod developers" actually means.
We have the forum, bugtarcker, IRC channel, Discord channel, etc.
Usually if someone asks for help, we try to help.
Last edited by akortunov on 02 Aug 2018, 06:26, edited 1 time in total.

NullCascade
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by NullCascade » 01 Aug 2018, 22:49

Br0ken wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 15:59
Devs mostly on Linux, so it often impact on Windows-specific bug fixing. But this situation was improved for now.
OpenMW survived full C++ rewrite in 2010, switching to OSG in 2015 and leaving of core developers (Nicolay Korslund, Scrawl). And it's alive, although it definitely needs more active developers...
Significant new modding opportunities? OpenMW only recently has feature parity with Morrowind, so needs more time to do it (and more love to OpenMW-CS).
Br0ken wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 15:59
Cool, but MWSE is extension over closed source engine, after all. You cannot dehardcode it all.
You're doing a fantastic job, that's why I hope to see you as OpenMW dev.
Appreciate the feedback. I'll become an OpenMW dev when OpenMW looks like the best horse to back to get cool mods made. Well, that, and when OpenMW stops crashing/hanging on 2/3 of my machines. It'll get there. But it still has a ways to go.
MWSE 2.x lead.

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Br0ken
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by Br0ken » 02 Aug 2018, 07:15

NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 22:49
Well, that, and when OpenMW stops crashing/hanging on 2/3 of my machines.
I can say that OpenMW is pretty much stable on Windows machines (even on old laptop), so it would be great if you provide some details about crashes.

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Atahualpa
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by Atahualpa » 02 Aug 2018, 07:32

Br0ken wrote:
02 Aug 2018, 07:15
NullCascade wrote:
01 Aug 2018, 22:49
Well, that, and when OpenMW stops crashing/hanging on 2/3 of my machines.
I can say that OpenMW is pretty much stable on Windows machines (even on old laptop), so it would be great if you provide some details about crashes.
I also wonder what specific setups you have, NullCascade. I never had any problems using OpenMW on Windows (my first version was 0.22 or something like that). Even when I started to do the release videos - which includes checking every change of a release and playing around with the engine to quite some extend, including some basic modding with OpenMW-CS - I never encountered a crash (apart from a few on-purpose crashes to confirm a couple of issues on our bug tracker).

Bad FPS or freezes also never were a problem for me, except for the infamous (and now mostly solved) physics problems.

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lysol
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by lysol » 02 Aug 2018, 08:10

NullCascade's problems are known, but unfortunately not reproducable. He has already provided details, AnyOldName3 has been trying to fix them without success so far.
Normal mapped texture replacers, exclusive for OpenMW:
My Nexus page

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Starsheep
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Re: Recent Negativity Regarding OpenMW

Post by Starsheep » 02 Aug 2018, 11:12

What matters the most in the end is to get shit done. Pardon my French: implement features.

Nullcascade gave us a vibrant example: facing two options, he had to choose between disassembling binaries to implement his stuff, or contribute to the project/wait for it to mature. In his case, considering his skillset, technical affinities and whatnot, the former solution was preferrable from his point of view.

On top of that, a project like MWSE is an enabler; meaning that it opens doors to another whole group of content creators who can make stuff with a lower barrier of entry, technically speaking. More shit done, that widens even more the gap between OpenMW and the end-users.
These content creators also bear the weight of providing their own audience with support, with technical skills varying wildly and mod authors can't be blamed for refusing to offer assistance to the odd guy who wants glowing windows and dildo sheathing on his raspberry pi.

This is the very root of the tension (or perception of) between OpenMW and the modding crowd.

To reduce this tension, OpenMW needs to catch up with what the rest of the community is doing. Problem: re-implementing the engine from scratch is a huge task, takes a lot of effort, with quite a high barrier of entry.
Although OpenMW comes with its own benefits compared to the original engine (stability, multiplatform, vfs, tes3mp etc..) and a lot has been achieved already, it's still a train or two behind the mass of people who actually play the game, the population of end users which accounts for the largest amount of people spending time on Morrowind nowadays. Zini's design document paved the way, there's still so much to be done.

There were some talks recently about reviewing a bit the project public relations. But for which public? Gamers? Modders? Content creators?
Maybe new PR plans to find and incitate more contributors to join would be beneficial.

OpenMW needs manpower to fill that gap and reunite the community. Even if catching up with the Morrowind scene can be viewed as an intermediate step in the project life, more hands can't be bad for the largest scope of building a multipurpose engine.

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