Better character options?

[MacKom]

Hello, team Open MW.

I`ve been keeping an eye on this project, looking at all the amazing stuff you guys are pulling off and anxiously waiting for a beta release so that I can enjoy Morrowind even more than I do now.

Still, being a modder, I was wondering - are there any plans for improved options regarding creating character content? Things that come to mind are vertex weighting and skinning, as they would allow way more options in character mod making, like skinned and weighted bodies that look and feel more natural, followed by heads that could integrate into the body seamlessly, better looking clothes and armors, moving hair (which would also be A LOT easier to make than with current segmenting method), and the list goes on.

I do realize it is a tough thing to implement, but still - should we keep our hopes up?

[Chris]

Vertex weighting and skinning is already done. Vanilla Morrowind uses it in some places (though not a lot with the default character models), and you can see it more prominently with mods like Better Bodies.

[MacKom]

Ah, thanks for the reply. I was already corrected and told there actually IS skinning/weighting in game, but the problem is that meshes have to be cut into body slots, and in the process of doing it normals get all screwed up and have to be fixed by hand, which is pretty tedious work.

Anyways, since I`m already here, I might as well ask - in the future, will we be able to utilize normal maps on characters as well? I`ve seen some object mods that use them but never a character mod (face, clothing, armor, hair etc) so...yah.

Oh, and OT - If someone knows if it`s possible to fix default Morrowind skeleton scaling (to get somewhat better proportions) throughout the game w/o having to manually edit every single mesh, I would REALLY appreciate it. I figured, since you guys have been poking through the files a lot more than me, perhaps you already know the answer.

[WeirdSexy]

The character models and animations are the main things that are aesthetically unappealing to me, so I'm going to ask: Just in general terms, how modern will openmw (with planned functionality) theoretically allow modders to make character models/animations?

If someone wanted to sculpt, texture, rig, and animate an entirely new model for the Player & NPCs (and provide new clothing/armor ), how close to (for example) Skyrim's character models/animations could it look?

[Chris]

The character models and animations are the main things that are aesthetically unappealing to me, so I'm going to ask: Just in general terms, how modern will openmw (with planned functionality) theoretically allow modders to make character models/animations?

As modern as Ogre allows. The biggest issue will be getting someone to make high-quality assets. We don't support normal mapping yet, but that will come with time.

If someone wanted to sculpt, texture, rig, and animate an entirely new model for the Player & NPCs (and provide new clothing/armor ), how close to (for example) Skyrim's character models/animations could it look?

I don't believe Skyrim-quality models and animations would be hard to support, assuming they're made in a format we can work with. There are some missing features (mostly relating to how the helmet models expand and warp around the different faces), but I don't think it'd be impossible to do.

[Chris]

Ah, thanks for the reply. I was already corrected and told there actually IS skinning/weighting in game, but the problem is that meshes have to be cut into body slots, and in the process of doing it normals get all screwed up and have to be fixed by hand, which is pretty tedious work.

I believe Skyrim has an interesting fix for this. They have model-space normal maps, meaning you basically ignore vertex normals and just use the normal map as providing an 'absolute' direction (as far as the mesh itself goes).

Though, model-space normal maps do have a drawback. They can't be optimized as partial derivatives, or use 2-component compression schemes.

Anyways, since I`m already here, I might as well ask - in the future, will we be able to utilize normal maps on characters as well? I`ve seen some object mods that use them but never a character mod (face, clothing, armor, hair etc) so...yah.

Eventually we will, I'm sure. Vanilla Morrowind uses some kind of bump mapping, though it only applies it to the environment texture.

Oh, and OT - If someone knows if it`s possible to fix default Morrowind skeleton scaling (to get somewhat better proportions) throughout the game w/o having to manually edit every single mesh, I would REALLY appreciate it. I figured, since you guys have been poking through the files a lot more than me, perhaps you already know the answer.

I don't think it's really possible to fix the skeleton proportions without also fixing the meshes.

[MacKom]

As modern as Ogre allows. The biggest issue will be getting someone to make high-quality assets. We don't support normal mapping yet, but that will come with time.

Actually, it could be simpler to find an individual or two than you might think

Besides, I`m pretty sure that, with brand new features and capabilities, people would come back to modding Morrowind, and some new faces could appear as well. All we need is "the magic" that you guys can provide us

Eventually we will, I'm sure. Vanilla Morrowind uses some kind of bump mapping, though it only applies it to the environment texture.

Now this makes me giddy as a schoolgirl! I really, really, really can`t wait to have this option available to us. Even with 512x512 uncompressed normal map faces, bodies, clothes, you name it, would be able to display a lot more details than they do now. Combine that with AO to accentuate the surface irregularities and good diffuse maps and you got yourself some pretty sweet looking characters. <3

I believe Skyrim has an interesting fix for this. They have model-space normal maps, meaning you basically ignore vertex normals and just use the normal map as providing an 'absolute' direction (as far as the mesh itself goes).
Though, model-space normal maps do have a drawback. They can't be optimized as partial derivatives, or use 2-component compression schemes.

In Skyrim bodies and heads use world space normals, and everything else uses tangent space normals...erm, I think. Didn`t quite go poking through all the files yet

I don't think it's really possible to fix the skeleton proportions without also fixing the meshes.

Really? Humm...well, another modder (linked to her tumblr) noticed that better bodies meshes are all the same for all races, but in game they display differently (for instance, Redguards have wider hips). So, she came to the conclusion that there might be something in there that modifies skeleton scaling regardless of the base mesh shape itself (if I`m making any sense). Something similar can be observed in Skyrim with face morphs (noses, mouths) - same mesh shape, different displaying results on races. Conundrum, for sure...

[MacKom]

Rather than opening a new thread, I figured I could ask here as well. So, my question is -

SKIN TONES.

Since I`m not a programmer and don`t know if this esthetic feature is considered important by OpenMW team, I was wondering if

a) it`s possible
b) it`s considered as a feature included with Open MW (at a later date)

Basically - texture overlays over base body/head textures, for more NPC variation (since they use a limited amount of default heads). Also, a custom vampire texture overlay which should allow the player to keep his characters face when turned into a vampire.

Can it and could it be done?

[psi29a]

sounds like a mod to me...

[MacKom]

Oh, well...at least I tried.

Now to feed that idea to someone who could do it...