Only support OpenGL

[Zini]

I don't have any up to date info, sorry. Been years since I did anything more with Windows than playing games on it.

Anyway, the discussion is pointless. Supporting DirectX cost us not a lot, because OGRE does the heavy lifting. With the shiny library we have abstracted away most of the difference between the shader languages and apart from the occasional special case we basically get DirectX support for free.

[SXX]

Can anyone find that or at least substantiate it?

I'm just random guy who watch OpenMW project for quite a long time, but I care to comment on topic I'm know something about. Personally I'm spend a year helping to support OpenGL-powered game called "Planetary Annihilation" so now I'm have some knowledge about driver state on hardware with GL3 support:

• Intel HD2000/3000 and newer
• ATI HD2XXX and newer
• Nvidia 8XXX and newer

So on Windows OpenGL drivers with only some workarounds required for Intel drivers, but those likely included within Ogre. Unfortunately 3-4 years ago GL driver state was a lot worse and it's cause issues for old hardware with no driver updates and serious problems if there no updates:

1. First of all many Windows users do not update their drivers even if they can do that easily and know how.
   There also many non tech-savvy players who don't actually know how to do that or think Windows will do it for them.
2. On laptops only Nvidia GPU drivers have problem-free installation:
   • Intel HD drivers usually have to be installed from ZIP which isn't easy thing to do.
   • Updating mobility drivers on laptops with AMD GPUs is tons of pain. For some laptops (where both legacy and non-legacy GPUs come together) AMD don't provide any working at all so you have to grab some Frankenstein-like "custom driver" from 3rd-party forum.
3. On AMD Legacy GPUs (HD2XXX 3XXX 4XXX 530v) usage of OpenGL cause freezes/lockups/crashes.
   Real updates for those abandoned since December of 2012.
4. Unfortunately Windows 8+ do distribute GPU drivers, but with OpenGL erased from them particularly for Intel HD and AMD Legacy GPUs. In case of AMD Legacy it's really tricky to replace built-in driver with one from AMD because their crappy installer can't replace built-in one.
5. All drivers for laptops on Vista are abandoned.

Of course this all isn't problem of OpenGL itself, but poor Windows ecosystem and ATI/AMD software, but fact is: when 2-3 years ago there was hundreds popular games using Direct3D only 5-10 used OpenGL on Windows so old drivers are work a lot better with D3D9.

And yeah each game using OpenGL on Windows and force players to update drivers help a lot to other projects using it, but this will create pain in ass for many newcomers and also restrict certain hardware users from game just because GL support for older ATI and Intel (onboard) GPUs is non-existent thing.

So considering what goal of OpenMW project is this will be dumb to turn it into OpenGL-only project except you guys decide to only target GPUs from 2012 or newer and even here users of laptops of AMD will met a lot of pain because I doubt situation with their drivers have improved.

PS: This post isn't just directed to devs, but also to OP and others who might ask this question later on.

[psi29a]

Thanks for that SXX!

Are you the same SXX as _SXX_ on phoronix? If so, thank you for posting this:
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthre ... post449432

Have you read these?
https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails

[SXX]

Are you the same SXX as _SXX_ on phoronix? If so, thank you for posting this:
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthre ... post449432

Yes it's me.

Have you read these?
https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails

I'd read original topic on forum. Though in world where things like DMCA exist it's still bad idea to mess with guys who can abuse it so I'm was happy to know this was just misunderstanding and Bethesda guys aren't this kind.

[SquireNed]

Another thing about dropping D3D is that while I'm not fundamentally opposed to it, there's a lot of stuff to be done in OGRE before it's feasible; apparently the OpenGL stuff works really well on Linux and Mac, but it's about a 10 frame hit, and OpenMW chugs as it is.

Feature wise, OpenGL has more features, but, as Zini points out, the OGRE library is basically giving OpenMW very cheap DirectX functionality there's no reason to intentionally exclude it—the number of benefits are basically nil (a very small fraction of free time), and it will make Windows users have a somewhat crummy experience (not to mention problems in fringe cases where specific hardware disagrees with OpenGL).