Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

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Chris
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Chris » 25 Jan 2018, 03:19

Jemolk wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 21:28
But the problem with that is, the Telvanni wouldn't do that.
They would if they had reason to. If you had something to offer them, like Divayth Fyr who would want to study your case of corprus, or might be interested in a Dwemer artifact you're offering. Surely they have to go down to the lower floors of their own tower sometimes, to talk to their hired help or get some stuff they have stored down there. Fyr goes to his Corpusarium on occasion, and even Mistress Therana has to go down sometimes given her decorative choices.
I dunno, maybe someone could lend you an enchanted item with Levitate or help you figure out where to find one, but your proposed solutions are totally out of character for, say, Master Neloth or Archmagister Gothren. They WANT it to be hard to reach them, and they're not going to coddle some pathetic (in their minds) non-mage who isn't even powerful enough to learn to levitate. They're elitist ancient wizards with huge egos, not elected politicians. If you can't get to them, you're not worth their time as far as they're concerned.
Master Neloth has a levitation pad in his tower in Dragonborn, to help people up to him if they don't know how to levitate. They don't expect a lot out of others, and recognize they have to occasionally interact with such peons, so it's not as if they never make any concessions.

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raevol
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by raevol » 25 Jan 2018, 05:33

Jemolk wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 19:46
Talrivian's State-Based HP: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-61-6521

Linora's Levelling Mod: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-15-12299
Thank you!!

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Jemolk
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Jemolk » 25 Jan 2018, 07:25

Chris wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 03:19
Jemolk wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 21:28
But the problem with that is, the Telvanni wouldn't do that.
They would if they had reason to. If you had something to offer them, like Divayth Fyr who would want to study your case of corprus, or might be interested in a Dwemer artifact you're offering. Surely they have to go down to the lower floors of their own tower sometimes, to talk to their hired help or get some stuff they have stored down there. Fyr goes to his Corpusarium on occasion, and even Mistress Therana has to go down sometimes given her decorative choices.
I dunno, maybe someone could lend you an enchanted item with Levitate or help you figure out where to find one, but your proposed solutions are totally out of character for, say, Master Neloth or Archmagister Gothren. They WANT it to be hard to reach them, and they're not going to coddle some pathetic (in their minds) non-mage who isn't even powerful enough to learn to levitate. They're elitist ancient wizards with huge egos, not elected politicians. If you can't get to them, you're not worth their time as far as they're concerned.
Master Neloth has a levitation pad in his tower in Dragonborn, to help people up to him if they don't know how to levitate. They don't expect a lot out of others, and recognize they have to occasionally interact with such peons, so it's not as if they never make any concessions.
Neloth has that stupid pad because there is no levitation in Skyrim at all. Basically, they needed levitation, but were for some silly reason adamant about not making it an available spell, so instead they made a device because game mechanics basically. Here's the thing, Neloth doesn't recognize he has to deal with peons, or at least not ones asking him for anything. He talks to you mainly because dragonborn ex machina and because you have a Black Book of Hermaeus Mora. Even then, the guy pretty near tells you to piss off. If he needs something, needs anything, he just orders one of his servants to take care of it. He makes that abundantly clear when you talk to him. He even pretty much treats you as one.

Most of the masters would occasionally be on the lower floors if they had schedules...but Gothren wouldn't. He has all he needs in his chamber at the top of Tel Aruhn. That's probably the biggest sticking point here. You have to deal with Gothren to become Hortator, and it would actually suit what he wants to give you further delays. See, he doesn't even give you a hard no until you've gotten his disposition up a bunch. His preferred method is to string you along. To become Hortator, you have to kill Gothren because he will otherwise never vote for you, and he'll never duel you honorably or something. He'll just string you along, never giving you an actual answer, and since he's got his bed, his servants and his projects available to him without ever coming down, there's no other reason for him to do so. As for getting stuff stored below or talking to their hired help...they'll just send a servant to take care of that.

When it comes right down to it, Aryon has no real reason to leave his utterly inaccessible chambers personally either. He'd probably be more willing than any of the others to meet you, though. And who the hell knows what Therana does. Probably sleeps on those pillows on the floor in her chamber or something, and she'd probably descend the tower occasionally, sure, but not in any kind of way that could be reasonably replicated by daily or weekly AI schedules. She also probably wouldn't agree to meet you. Remember, she's batshit insane. Dratha certainly isn't going to meet you if your character is male, since she's a hell of a misandrist, and you have to throw yourself at her feet and beg pitifully to get her to support you...which she likely does as much to get rid of you as to actually help. For becoming Hortator, that leaves Neloth, who will support you, but he doesn't exactly seem the type to go one step out of his way to do so. Telvanni Masters are among the few people on Vvardenfell who have little reason to actually fear Dagoth Ur. Unlike pretty much everyone else, they don't really give two shits about the Nerevarine. They respect your power, but that's about it, same as Neloth with the dragonborn.

Divayth Fyr might, might descend his tower to check your case of corprus personally, and probably would for the dwemer gift you can hand him...but you have to deal with the others later on anyway, and only Aryon would be likely to actually be remotely willing to come to you. Dratha might for female characters, but certainly not for males, and perhaps you could catch Therana in the lower tower if you're VERY lucky. But Neloth is still not likely to come unless you do some insane quest to impress him, and Gothren never would. And you need Dratha and Gothren. If you don't have access to levitation, where does that leave you?

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Jemolk
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Jemolk » 25 Jan 2018, 07:27

raevol wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 05:33
Jemolk wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 19:46
Talrivian's State-Based HP: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-61-6521

Linora's Levelling Mod: http://mw.modhistory.com/download-15-12299
Thank you!!
You're quite welcome! Glad I could help!

Chris
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Joined: 04 Sep 2011, 08:33

Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Chris » 25 Jan 2018, 20:55

Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
If he needs something, needs anything, he just orders one of his servants to take care of it.
Exactly, so his servants will need a way to get up to him, or he needs to go down to them. He doesn't just stick to his elevated room in the tower and never see anyone who can't fly to him.
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
Most of the masters would occasionally be on the lower floors if they had schedules...but Gothren wouldn't. He has all he needs in his chamber at the top of Tel Aruhn. That's probably the biggest sticking point here.
By the time you need to see Gothren, I imagine you'd have the ear of at least one other Telvanni Wizard (Aryon, Fyr) who could help you up to him to discuss Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine prophecies, presuming no other option is available.
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
As for getting stuff stored below or talking to their hired help...they'll just send a servant to take care of that.
They'd still need to be able to talk to a servant to make the request/demand.

The Telvanni are a Great House. They do deal with the politics and goings-on of Morrowind, if begrudgingly. They're not complete and total shut-ins. Even if they have no interest in actually helping you, if you cause a big enough stir among the other Great Houses about being Nerevarine, enough of them would make a token effort to see what the fuss is about and subsequently tell you to get lost or give their token support.

tomangelo
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by tomangelo » 25 Jan 2018, 22:28

His servants are probably another mages who can levitate without potions and scrolls. So they might just fly up and down if he needs something from them.

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Thunderforge
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Thunderforge » 26 Jan 2018, 03:38

Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
Neloth has that stupid pad because there is no levitation in Skyrim at all. Basically, they needed levitation, but were for some silly reason adamant about not making it an available spell, so instead they made a device because game mechanics basically.
The main reason they ditched levitation is because it makes it really easy to sequence-break certain quests. The one I always think of is Oblivion's "Caught in the Hunt" where you get tricked into getting trapped on an island and have to fight through a gauntlet in order to leave. If you have levitation (or teleportation for that matter), then the "getting trapped on an island" quest can't work. Sure, they could come up with some reason to make it a no-teleport zone or something, but ultimately the developers decided to just nix it for simplicity.

It's the same reason so many sci-fi shows don't do Star Trek-style transporters. Heck, Star Trek itself often comes up with reasons why the transporters aren't working so that the solution isn't instantly solved (it's surprising how many planets have a transporter-scrambling atmosphere).

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DestinedToDie
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by DestinedToDie » 26 Jan 2018, 05:17

I would keep the weight system on the engine side as-is. In the context of Morrowind, it has issues, but if you're handling it from a fresh game, you can make good use of it I think. For example, I can make way overpowered items if I just add a lot of weight to them. Not only does the player have to choose which overpowered items they want to equip over others (too heavy to carry a full set), they also sacrifice speed and jumping ability. Strength can be an indirect requirement to use better items due to their weight and I'm more of a fan of that idea than having direct stat requirements on the item.

On the issue of inventory management, having less items to clutter the game may make it a non-issue or something you don't spend much time at all on.

I would like the option to make a different levelup though. Currently it gives you these 3 coins which you have to invest in 3 different stats. But maybe I want a Diablo-like system where you are given 5 points and you might invest 3 in strength 2 in dex or simply all 5 points into vitality.
Last edited by DestinedToDie on 26 Jan 2018, 05:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Jemolk
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Re: Thoughts on game mechanics in Morrowind

Post by Jemolk » 26 Jan 2018, 05:35

Thunderforge wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 03:38
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
Neloth has that stupid pad because there is no levitation in Skyrim at all. Basically, they needed levitation, but were for some silly reason adamant about not making it an available spell, so instead they made a device because game mechanics basically.
The main reason they ditched levitation is because it makes it really easy to sequence-break certain quests. The one I always think of is Oblivion's "Caught in the Hunt" where you get tricked into getting trapped on an island and have to fight through a gauntlet in order to leave. If you have levitation (or teleportation for that matter), then the "getting trapped on an island" quest can't work. Sure, they could come up with some reason to make it a no-teleport zone or something, but ultimately the developers decided to just nix it for simplicity.

It's the same reason so many sci-fi shows don't do Star Trek-style transporters. Heck, Star Trek itself often comes up with reasons why the transporters aren't working so that the solution isn't instantly solved (it's surprising how many planets have a transporter-scrambling atmosphere).
Yeah, true...but it's established lore that powerful magic can block teleportation with just too much interference for safe transport. Blocking levitation might be trickier...but for that quest, all they had to do was put a roof on the damn fort and there's no levitating out. After all, you're not actually trapped there until you enter the fort, and you can't levitate through solid rock.

And honestly, teleportation is such a major convenience factor for mages, I'd much rather have the occasional dungeon where a MacGuffin that doesn't quite feel like a MacGuffin is blocking teleportation like in Hircine's maze in Bloodmoon, or in the Clockwork City, than not have it at all ever. I mean, if everyone knows mages can teleport, anyone looking to trap people on an island would want to make damn sure that they didn't end up catching a mage who then teleports off and reveals their secret to everyone. Isn't it kinda fantasy kidnapper 101 that you don't want to risk your captives escaping via magic so you'll never be able to catch them? That's why the slave bracers in Morrowind drain Magicka (though really, the bracers should have Silence instead of 3pts Drain Magicka).
Chris wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 20:55
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
If he needs something, needs anything, he just orders one of his servants to take care of it.
Exactly, so his servants will need a way to get up to him, or he needs to go down to them. He doesn't just stick to his elevated room in the tower and never see anyone who can't fly to him.
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
Most of the masters would occasionally be on the lower floors if they had schedules...but Gothren wouldn't. He has all he needs in his chamber at the top of Tel Aruhn. That's probably the biggest sticking point here.
By the time you need to see Gothren, I imagine you'd have the ear of at least one other Telvanni Wizard (Aryon, Fyr) who could help you up to him to discuss Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine prophecies, presuming no other option is available.
Jemolk wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 07:25
As for getting stuff stored below or talking to their hired help...they'll just send a servant to take care of that.
They'd still need to be able to talk to a servant to make the request/demand.

The Telvanni are a Great House. They do deal with the politics and goings-on of Morrowind, if begrudgingly. They're not complete and total shut-ins. Even if they have no interest in actually helping you, if you cause a big enough stir among the other Great Houses about being Nerevarine, enough of them would make a token effort to see what the fuss is about and subsequently tell you to get lost or give their token support.
The servants are probably wizards themselves and can cast levitate. In fact, they definitely are. But getting an enchanted item that can allow you to levitate from Lord Fyr could work. Or perhaps Master Aryon. So I suppose yes, it could be made to work. The problem mainly is how much you'd have to rework for this. It doesn't really make sense for them to just give you something like that, I think. So have them give you some sort of quest to help them out in some way, I guess? In addition to AI packages, scripted meetings and more, all so you don't require potions to be able to have levitate effects. Also, while we're at it, what would you do about the Ministry of Truth? It's a great big floating rock. And it seems less likely that Mehra could get you an expensive reusable enchanted item with levitate than a couple potions or scrolls. And for that matter, the Shrine of Daring would need a different donation, since it currently asks for a Potion of Rising Force.

Honestly, the answer to why everyone's not flying everywhere is probably that most people in Morrowind, being average workers, don't have the money to. Buying potions and scrolls all the time would add up, and most people aren't selling off Ebony and Daedric weaponry to fund their adventures and become filthy rich like the player can later on, nor are most of them master alchemists or scribes of scrolls.

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