Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

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wareya
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by wareya » 21 Dec 2017, 01:09

AnyOldName3 wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 01:06
It doesn't say in-game at any point that reflection only changes the target of a specific component of the spell or whether or not the effective caster changes.
It does. When spells that keep track of the caster are reflected. Like, you know, this bug.

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AnyOldName3
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by AnyOldName3 » 21 Dec 2017, 01:20

I'm meaning in terms of text explaining the mechanic. Once someone starts claiming the behaviour was unintentional, whatever the original engine actually does in a given situation can't actually be used to prove anything one way or the other. Otherwise, we can end up with issues like people claiming "It was Todd Howard's intention that the whole of Tamriel ceases to exist if the Dragonborn kills Potema with CBBE/UNP/Whatever outfit mods installed" which is clearly a ridiculous idea, but could be justified if we allow game behaviour to be used as definitive proof of the designer's intention.

Either way, I've un-rejected issue 4135, as while I disagree with the debate techniques of some of the original engine's behaviour's proponents, I haven't seen any proof from MCP's behaviour's fans that Morrowind's designers wanted the engine to be doing something it didn't end up doing in this specific case.
AnyOldName3, Master of Shadows

Chris
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by Chris » 21 Dec 2017, 01:37

Schwerpunkt wrote:
20 Dec 2017, 23:22
No metaphor to explain it the other way works because that isn't how the concept of the spell works.
The spell creates a connection between you (the caster) and the victim (the target). The spell then normally sends health from the victim to you over that connection, but with reflect, the flow is reflected (reversed) so it goes from you to the victim. Easy.

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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by Schwerpunkt » 21 Dec 2017, 02:38

Chris wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 01:37
The spell creates a connection between you (the caster) and the victim (the target). The spell then normally sends health from the victim to you over that connection, but with reflect, the flow is reflected (reversed) so it goes from you to the victim. Easy.
That isn't how reflection works in any sense of the word.

When you reflect something, you don't make yourself the originator. You're just changing the target. Try thinking of a flashlight pointed at a mirror -- the mirror doesn't suddenly become the flashlight. It's just a mirror. That it reflects light doesn't make it the originator, the flashlight is still the originator.

All the target is doing when they reflect the spell is sending the effects of the spell right back at you. When you cast absorb health on said target, the only part of the spell that they can reflect is the part that was cast at them. The only part that was cast at them is the part that drains their health -- NOT the part that restores that health to the caster. That effect rests solely with the caster. It can't be reflected, because that isn't how reflection works.

In order for something to be reflected, it has to be cast at the object doing the reflecting. You aren't sending the part of the spell that restores your health to the target, you're attaching it to yourself.

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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by Schwerpunkt » 21 Dec 2017, 02:43

AnyOldName3 wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 01:06
That's circular logic as far as I can tell. It doesn't say in-game at any point that reflection only changes the target of a specific component of the spell or whether or not the effective caster changes. (I say effective caster because the original caster's magika is what gets used.) Both options make sense as game mechanics (and they could even conceivably be in the same game, perhaps with Morrowind's behaviour called Lesser Reflect, and MCP's behaviour called Greater Reflect, available as a higher-level upgrade to the other version) and there's no detailed in-world explanation of the mechanics of the spell.
Then we can assume that reflection in Morrowind works the same as reflection in real life.

When you're reflecting something, you're merely changing the target of the thing you're reflecting. You don't become the originator of that thing.

Since the entire point of an absorb health spell is to absorb the health of the target and give it to the caster, we can safely assume that only the caster can be given health -- not the target, unless the target also happens to be the caster. Targets that reflect the spell are not the casters of that spell, so they can't be given health. They would need to cast that spell themselves, not reflect it, to gain health through it.

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AnyOldName3
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by AnyOldName3 » 21 Dec 2017, 02:59

When light is reflected, the maths works out as if there's a virtual source behind the mirror, so if we take the light analogy and run with it, then the health would be sent back to a virtual caster, not the original one, and (unless the healing part gets reflected, too) that path goes via the original target. That then puts the onus of deciding who gets the health on the target, and if they could selectively reflect such that they get the health (i.e. reflect the damage back to the caster, but when the health is travelling back along the spell path in the reverse direction to the caster, let it through the reflect spell, and into the target), they would as they'd then have more health. The resist spells can be selective by spell type, so it's not totally unreasonable to assume that people designing a reflect spell would make it reflect the hostile components of a spell but not the desirable ones.
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wareya
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by wareya » 21 Dec 2017, 03:21

AnyOldName3 wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 01:20
I'm meaning in terms of text explaining the mechanic.
Doesn't matter. The lore contradicts the game mechanics constantly. The game mechanics as implemented are word of god.

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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by Chris » 21 Dec 2017, 05:38

Schwerpunkt wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 02:38
When you reflect something, you don't make yourself the originator. You're just changing the target.
Which is what's happening. The target of the health damage is changed and the target of the health restoration is changed too.

Think of it as a wire connecting the caster and victim. With a normal damage or healing spell, the caster's end is neutral and the victim's is negative or positive. When reflected, this is reversed so the victim's end is neutral and the caster's is negative or positive. With an absorb spell, the caster's end is positive and the victim's is negative. When reflected, this is reversed so the victim's end is positive and the caster's is negative. It's like looking in a mirror -- left becomes right in the reflection, and right becomes left in the reflection.
Try thinking of a flashlight pointed at a mirror -- the mirror doesn't suddenly become the flashlight. It's just a mirror. That it reflects light doesn't make it the originator, the flashlight is still the originator.
That's taking it too literally. In that case, a fireball should bounce off an enemy with reflect magic, but instead the damage is calculated on the victim and applied on the caster as if there's an invisible connection between them that got reversed.

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kuyondo
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by kuyondo » 21 Dec 2017, 07:32

like i said, this issue is more about personal preferences. we can argue about that with no end because opinions are opnions. what we fail to see is that this issue isnt a bug nor is it causing problems for the game. but since vanilla behaves as such, i think openmw should too. probably some time later, we could customize the spell using scripts which would ameliorate this case.

Schwerpunkt
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Re: Undo the alleged MCP "fix" for Absorb spell reflection

Post by Schwerpunkt » 21 Dec 2017, 21:20

AnyOldName3 wrote:
21 Dec 2017, 02:59
When light is reflected, the maths works out as if there's a virtual source behind the mirror, so if we take the light analogy and run with it, then the health would be sent back to a virtual caster, not the original one, and (unless the healing part gets reflected, too) that path goes via the original target. That then puts the onus of deciding who gets the health on the target, and if they could selectively reflect such that they get the health (i.e. reflect the damage back to the caster, but when the health is travelling back along the spell path in the reverse direction to the caster, let it through the reflect spell, and into the target), they would as they'd then have more health. The resist spells can be selective by spell type, so it's not totally unreasonable to assume that people designing a reflect spell would make it reflect the hostile components of a spell but not the desirable ones.
It really doesn't.

There are three components: caster, target, spell. Reflect only changes the target. It doesn't change the caster or the spell. The reflector doesn't become the new caster, the reflector just changes the target.

Again, three components: caster, target, spell. So you (caster) cast absorb health (spell) on me (target). The spell affects the caster and the target in different ways. It drains the target and restores the caster.

Me, being the target, has reflect, so the spell is reflected -- but I can only reflect the portion of the spell that affected me. I cannot reflect the portion of the spell that affects you nor do I become the new caster of the spell. Again, I am only reflecting a portion of it because I was only the target of a portion of it.

It's exactly like tying a ball to a piece of string and tying the string to your finger. If I throw the ball at you, and you hit it back at me, the string doesn't automatically become tied to your finger -- it's still tied to mine. The only thing you could reflect was the ball because it was the only thing that was thrown at you.

This is physics 101, and the vanilla game backs me up on it.

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