Yo, we got our first IRC Troll

[GeorgeTheWarp]

You thought OpenMW was immune to human stupidity and insensitivity toward open source project? Of course not. We had a guy running around asking question about the vanilla engine in the OpenMW channel. While I recommended he plays his first playthrough of Morrowind vanilla, he used this as an argument that OpenMW people should know the vanilla engine and that it was all my fault if he thought he could easily play through MGO with OpenMW. Here's the full conversation:

Spoiler: Show

[19:35] <Yserr> I'm playing Morrowind for the first time so I decided to play on the original client as I can't be sure if OpenMW is 100% functional or not, and I would not be able to identify is something was going wrong or not without a point of reference, does this sound reasonable?
[19:36] <GeorgeThe> Yserr: it is what I'm doing, so yes, it is reasonable. hopefully you like savegame corruption tho.
[19:37] <Yserr> is anyone still around who can help resolve an issue with the regular client?
[19:38] <Yserr> the #1 issue I notice right away is that the autorun is unusable, because as you release the 'W' key and press the 'Q' key, the release of W cancels out the autorun
[19:38] <Yserr> so you can't transition to autorun
[19:38] <Yserr> you have to come to a complete stop from moving, before pressing the autorun key
[19:38] <Yserr> and despite how much I try, it fails repeatedly, because my finger was just a few milliseconds shy of releasing the W key before pressing Q
[19:39] <Yserr> I haven't seen that broken in any other program before, where the autorun gets cancelled out by the key-up event of the other movement keys
[19:39] <Yserr> I want to fix that minor thing before attempting to play morrowind, any hints?
[19:41] == serpn [~serp@unaffiliated/serpentine] has joined #openmw
[19:42] <Yserr> I don't fully understand how it's possible that nobody in history ever noticed that the key-up events cancel the autorun and you can't toggle autorun on and off and you have to come to a complete stop before pressing it (that's bizarre)
[19:42] <Yserr> people are extremely weird
[19:43] <randall> Yserr, being #openmw, if you were playing on openmw and having issues, we'd be able to help you
[19:43] <Yserr> randall can you help me to be capable of having openMW questions in the future by first fixing the old MW so I can graduate to the level of this chat room
[19:44] <GeorgeThe> Yserr: you prolly would want to install OpenMW for that
[19:44] <randall> Yserr, I don't get your point
[19:45] <GeorgeThe> It's not very sane to complain about bugs in a 2002 engine that hasn't be updated for more than a decade
[19:45] <Yserr> it's slightly sane
[19:45] <serpn> slim margins
[19:45] <Yserr> There could be an old pro who has a long history with MW and worked on the MW exe patchers and still has various MW hacking stuff in their archives
[19:46] <randall> just use openmw, the engine is quite capable even in current state
[19:46] <Yserr> i kinda expected some of those guys would be here
[19:46] <GeorgeThe> OpenMW is able to make you play the entire game without problems
[19:46] <randall> ^
[19:46] <GeorgeThe> What is currently lacking is, sadly, the CS
[19:46] <Yserr> GeorgeThe, then why say what you said?
[19:46] <Yserr> the CS?
[19:46] <randall> the construction set
[19:47] <Yserr> can I play the GO without issue?
[19:47] <Yserr> MGO
[19:47] <GeorgeThe> I asked if you like save corruption because all bethesda games sadly feature the same save corruption bug
[19:47] <GeorgeThe> You overwrite a save too many times and eventually it gets corrupted, probably because the engine doesn't overwrite the space with 0s before
[19:48] <Yserr> George, did you use the patcher?
[19:48] <GeorgeThe> No you cannot play the MGO, tho I have no idea why you'd want to do that on a first playthrough
[19:48] <Yserr> I am only playing MGO sorry, don't be mad
[19:48] <magamo> Yserr: You cannot play with all of the MGSO features enabled, because two of those features, the MGE and the MCP are engine modifications to the original engine, and are incompatible with OpenMW.
[19:49] <GeorgeThe> If you need support with MGO or vanilla Morrowind engine, look elsewhere, such as the nexus forums.
[19:49] <randall> *
[19:49] <Yserr> magamo, the MGE part is fine, that's just engine, I mean the model updates/textures etc...
[19:49] <randall> ^
[19:49] <GeorgeThe> Sadly, most of us (if not all), cannot help you with problems unrelated with OpenMW
[19:49] <Yserr> and the MCP features should be part of OpenMW anyways
[19:49] <magamo> Some are, some aren't, it depends upon the MCP feature.
[19:49] <GeorgeThe> I... don't think you know what the project is about, Yserr. Please look up the FAQW
[19:50] <Yserr> GeorgeThe shut up
[19:50] <Yserr> so magamo
[19:50] <magamo> And, as for the mods themselves in the MGSO, OpenMW should be able to run all of them with little issue.
[19:50] <Yserr> can OpenMW play through with the MGO models/textures?
[19:50] <magamo> But I've never used the pack myself, my modded Morrowind, I've always hand assembled.
[19:51] <magamo> And, with OpenMW, it includes a much more sane way of installing modifications than having everything dumped into a single directory tree, and the MGSO installer will still do it 'the old way'
[19:51] <GeorgeThe> Yserr: Yeah right, going to insult a person involved in the project like that. I think you misunderstood me, but I don't think you read the FAQ, so here's a link: https://openmw.org/faq/#whatis
[19:51] <Yserr> GeorgeThe you keep spamming
[19:51] <serpn> wat
[19:52] <randall> Yserr, you need to adjust your attitude
[19:52] <magamo> Plus: There's some OpenMW specific texture replacers that have been made that beat out the MGSO ones hands down.
[19:52] <randall> ^
[19:52] <Yserr> My attitude is positive, it's this GeorgeThe guy who keeps spamming the channel with "if you need support, look elsewhere", "Most cant help you", "read the FAQ", etc
[19:52] <Yserr> non informational stuff
[19:53] <randall> and yet he's right
[19:53] <Yserr> Those kinds of requests have no effect on me
[19:53] <GeorgeThe> Yserr: Umm actually, you clearly did not look up the FAQ, and I find it ridiculous that you come asking those kind of questions before even reading it
[19:53] <Yserr> GeorgeThe your argument is simple
[19:54] <Yserr> whatever I find interesting to talk about, you don't find interesting, so you seek to censor the conversation to be something that is more in line with your personal interest and your selfish individual gain
[19:54] <GeorgeThe> I did not mean to insult you, but this is not the way we ask for questions in an open source project, and the simple fact that I even bothered to answer to you should make you at least grateful, as the projet is about collaboration.
[19:54] <Yserr> You continue spamming
[19:54] <Yserr> I'm not even reading all that, it's emotional gibberish, don't you want to talk about MW?
[19:55] <GeorgeThe> Actually, I do want to talk about OpenMW, not the vanilla engine, which is what you were asking about in the first place.
[19:55] <Yserr> MW, openMW, is way more interesting than your whole spam thing
[19:55] <Yserr> so we should get back on track in the conversation where we were before you began with that stuff
[19:55] <Yserr> Positive effort
[19:56] <GeorgeThe> I did not spam, and you most clearly have no idea on how to talk to people concerning an open source project
[19:56] <Yserr> you are spamming right now!
[19:56] <GeorgeThe> The way you act right now would make you banned nearly instantly of most major open soure channels, sir.
[19:56] <GeorgeThe> And you now join the ignore list.
[19:56] <serpn> That... is not spam at all :/
[19:56] <randall> no Yserr I don't think that word means what you think it means
[19:56] Ignored Yserr , to unignore type: /UNIGNORE Yserr
[19:57] <Yserr> GeorgeThe those ignores never work out too well
[19:58] <Yserr> there is a global battle occurring now between peoples of the Earth who are ignorant (those who ignore), and peoples who are non-ignorant (those who are open minded)
[19:58] <Yserr> the ones who ignore try to convince the open minded ones to take their side and join the group to become ignorers too, and the open minded ones fight back and try to convince the ignorers that it is better to be open minded
[19:58] <randall> and welcome to my ignore list too
[19:58] Ignored Yserr , to unignore type: /UNIGNORE Yserr
[19:58] <serpn> holy shit we've hit the goldmine boyos
[19:58] <Yserr> you can sort yourself out on the side of the ignorant randall, that's ok
[19:58] <Yserr> it's OK to take a side
[19:59] <Yserr> just remember, it's the ignorant side
[19:59] <Yserr> and you will be defeated
[19:59] <GeorgeThe> How does he get out of the ignore list?
[19:59] <Yserr> the light always shines upon the darkness
[19:59] <randall> serpn, first troll I've ever seen come in here
[19:59] <GeorgeThe> Anyways, I'm posting this ridiculous conversation on the forum
[20:00] <serpn> Yserr is 2woke2troll
[20:00] <GeorgeThe> Yay we finally had our first troll! This is... comforting I guess. We're making some friction
[20:01] <randall> I'm compiling a list of the openmw-specific mods
[20:01] <Yserr> you guys, I'm not even a troll, I only react with "vigilance" if some guy starts trying to spam the channel
[20:01] <serpn> You're a regular hero of the people
[20:01] <randall>
[20:01] <serpn> A free thinker, a maverick
[20:02] <serpn> I am becoming... illuminated... by your sage words.
[20:03] <magamo> I'm overly confused by this definition of the word 'spam'.
[20:03] <magamo> I was unaware that it meant 'to debate' or 'to inform' >.>

EDIT: I still don't get how I was not able to ignore the poor guy, TBH. But I am enlightened, from this chat.

[rstevenson1976]

he didn't ever quit, I think he eventually just tired himself out

Spoiler: Show

<Yserr> can you complete the game with identical behavior to vanilla from start to finish?
<randall> as far as I'm aware, yes
<Yserr> somebody here must be aware of some divergence and is keeping silent
<randall> just install it and try it, it doesn't cost you anything and it
<randall> s really not that hard
<Yserr> oh no I have to do like 30 hours of configuration
<randall> wait....what?
<Yserr> I have to setup the graphics overhall to be fully working, then try to reproduce all the mods within the MCP, while trying to avoid being tempted by other mods that appeared while I was trying to search replacements
<Yserr> it's a whole hole
<Yserr> I definitely can't just download OpenMW and have that working in 1 hour, or anywhere close
<Yserr> it's going to give me a vanilla game and none of the patches I am used to having
<Yserr> I said 30 hours conservatively, various days of reading through OpenMW stuff
<Yserr> think about the time you put in personally
<randall> just install it and import your data, the wizard does that for you
<magamo> Yserr: Something that might simplify your life: If you install OpenMW, it gives you the option to use your current Morrowind data directory, and mod load list.
<Yserr> yes I did that before but --
<Yserr> what about the "Pickpocket Overhaul", the "NPC AI casts zero cost powers", etc --
<magamo> That's all MCP specific things, and are considered non-bugfix enhancements from the original engine, which means they may or may not have been within scope of OpenMW when attempting to replicate the functionality of the original unmodded engine, while fixing all known bugs.
<magamo> Some of them may have been implemented, some might not.
<Yserr> that's what I'm referring to about going back through mods to verify all this behavior and possibly find alternatives, configure stuff in openmw
<magamo> Most mods do not rely upon the enhanced capabilities of the MCP. The person to ask would be Hrmchamd, but I've not seen him in the channel in months.
<magamo> I actually have little or no knowledge on how to contact him,
<magamo> I used to communicate with him here, in fact, I assisted him on getting MWSE working through MGE XE under Wine in Linux the last time I really recall him being here.
<Yserr> it would seem reasonable for OpenMW to provided capabilities of the MCP so that somebody switching over doesn't lose things
<Yserr> *to provide
<magamo> Very few mods rely on those idiosyncracies of the MCP. The bugfixes MCP provides have been replicated in OpenMW overall, if memory serves, some of the additional features may have been.
<magamo> In fact, the biggest enhancement of the MCP that I've seen popular mods use, which is the map expansion, is done in a completely different, and altogether amazingly better way in OpenMW.
<magamo> As for individual mod compatibility with OpenMW, there's a non exhaustive list on the OpenMW wiki.
<magamo> And any help on getting that more complete is generally appreciated.
<Yserr> I wasn't worried about the mods relying on the MCP, but asking merely if you have the functionality for example of "pickpocket overhaul", and how I can verify the state for each of these
<magamo> The forum might be a better place to ask that question, or check the FAQ.
<magamo> I don't think the Pickpocket overhaul is included in OpenMW, as far as I am aware.
<Yserr> the FAQ lol
<Yserr> i read that in like 2 seconds before
<Yserr> it has barely any information
<Yserr> why refer somebody to there?
<meshuggah> lol
<meshuggah> we dont know shit here
<Yserr> it's project goals, license, and a few questions
<magamo> I've been as informative as I can be. Assume that enhancements from MCP are not implemented in OpenMW. Assume that bugfixes from MCP are implemented.
<Yserr> not covering any specifics of mod integration and patcher feature reproduction
<Yserr> magamo I do appreciate you being informative, but before referring me to the FAQ, don't you think you should be more aware of what's on the FAQ than I am?
<magamo> I am quite aware of what's in the FAQ. I don't appreciate you becoming combatative with me, when I've done all I can to give you the best answers I can. No one person can know everything.
<Yserr> magamo it's not combative in any way, I mean why refer me to a FAQ if you aren't certain of what's on the FAQ to know whether or not the question I asked is on the FAQ?
<magamo> Because it may be a better source of authoritative information than I am.
<Yserr> since it's not on the FAQ, therefore you were not familiar with what's on the FAQ, or you were referring me to read the FAQ for my general leisure / pleasure?
<meshuggah> dont get mad over this...
<meshuggah> how been your day, Yserr ?
<magamo> And there you go getting combatative/interrogative. I am answering your questions to the best of -- You know what, nevermind. I'm done. I have better things to do than talk in circles.
<Yserr> meshuggah I'm mad at about a level of 1%
<Yserr> magamo, no it's not combative, it's meant to provide you with accurate information about your knowledge of the outcome for referring people to the FAQ
<magamo> Then stop complaining about the FAQ, and do as I've suggested, and ask on the Forums, which is what Zini, Scrawl, MiroslavR and the other developers read.
<Yserr> you will know better in the future what happens if you suggest people read a FAQ, and that FAQ in fact does not contain any answers to any of the questions they asked about
<Yserr> then you can take the next logical step towards consideration of how to improve the FAQ
<Yserr> or to consider about possibly not referring people towards the FAQ
<meshuggah> i dont want to see you mad at level 2%
<meshuggah> owwwwww
<magamo> I am not on the team, and have no authority or access to modify the FAQ.
<magamo> I am merely an informed player who bughunts, sometimes successfully. I also try and be patient and a nice/good person.
<meshuggah> magamo is volunteering to try to maybe help maybe some people, and that come with 0 guarantee
<magamo> But, right now, all of my BOFH buttons are getting pushed. >.>
<Yserr> ok, magamo I see you are a very kind hearted guy, very charitable and honestly a good person, thinking about my wellbeing and trying to help me out here... Like you said originally, putting in 30 hours would be crazy so, can you download the MCP, and verify the entire list of all patches and tell me whether or not the OpenMW provided identical behavior for each one, and put it into a spreadsheet. "Pickpocket Overhaul: "
<meshuggah> http://bofh.bjash.com/ bofh this way?
<wheybot> Title: The Bastard Operator From Hell Complete
<Yserr> that would be helpful towards the project magamo
<Yserr> thanks I will look forwards towards it
<Yserr> you guys have a lot of altruism going here on this open source

[greetasdf]

hilarious, thanks Looks like someone was practicing trump-style conversation techniques

[bahamut]

hilarious, thanks Looks like someone was practicing trump-style conversation techniques

OpenMW - Making Morrowind Great Again

[magamo]

I think he was shut down by this, immediately following the previous piece of the IRC log. I heard nothing from him after this.

Spoiler: Show

22:28 < magamo> meshuggah: Yep. That way.
22:28 < meshuggah> been years i did not read that, i remember it was funny as
hell
22:32 < magamo> Yserr: Hey, look! You just identified an itch you can scratch
for your own edification. I look forward to the publication of
your results, as it would be truly helpful to the community.
Or, you could ask the developers on the forum. They're a lot
more likely to know which functionality of the MCP is present,
and which is not, though I can almost garauntee you that
enhancements from MCP, if they are to be put in to OpenMW are
on the roadmap for after the 1.0 release, which is earmarked
for when all functionality of the basic, unenhanced Morrowind
engine is replicated in as bug free a manner as possible.
22:33 < magamo> Actually, what would be even more helpful than a spreadsheet,
is for you to open issues on the OpenMW bug tracker for the
specific features that OpenMW is lacking that you feel are
blockers to a 1.0 release, and see if the developers will take
a direct look into implementing them.
22:34 < magamo> But do respect their decision if they decide that a particular
feature is to be implemented later, or not at all.
22:37 < magamo> I can assure you that the developers are, overall very
responsive to bugs, even ones that enhance OpenMW beyond
Morrowind's engine where appropriate. As of a couple of days
ago, there is now one mod that I'm aware of that was created
with the original Construction set, that runs better in OpenMW
than it does in the original Engine. There may be more. There
are still other mods that don't work as well in OpenMW as in
Morrowind. Bug reports to the original mod authors might be
appropriate, if it is scripting issues keeping compatibility
from working, since OpenMW has a more strict script interpretor
than Morrowind, and bug reports may be appropriate to OpenMW if
it's an engine behaviour issue keeping the mod from working.
22:38 < magamo> I do hope that this treaste on how to be a productive member of
the OpenMW community has been helpful to you, and I wish you a
good day.

[greetasdf]

hilarious, thanks Looks like someone was practicing trump-style conversation techniques

OpenMW - Making Morrowind Great Again

please... no... no more... leave our morrwind worlds/dreams intact!

[ezze]

Trump has to be fairly clever to actually convince about half of US voters to actually vote him. Otherwise it means a whole nation is a bunch of idiots.

About the topic, I am not American and a I am quite old school, so please bear with me; how do you distinguish between a troll and a good old idiot?

[psi29a]

In Stalin's era, we called them useful idiots. Everyone has a purpose, even those that are wrong.

[MikeMXellers]

Trump has to be fairly clever to actually convince about half of US voters to actually vote him. Otherwise it means a whole nation is a bunch of idiots.

I'd say he's a better vote than someone who's entire career has been nothing but using the power given to her by US citizens for personal gain, ideally it would have been Trump vs Sanders either one was a victory, both of them were against the way that corporate interests have their hands firmly up almost all politicians backsides.

[lgromanowski]

Moved it to "Off topic" subforum as this topic is going around politics (it's more suitable there imho).