I recently decided to start a new play through and to include the LGNPC-Dialogue Only mod. Since LGNPC is not included in the list of mods for the CFG Generator, I used mlox manually to sort and got an entirely different load order than I've had with the CFG gen.
Not sure which load order to use? Hoping to get some advice with some of the more savvy users of OpenMW. (Also if i'm using any blatantly conflicting or questionable mods, let me know!)
These are the load orders each provided:
mlox -
_001_ Morrowind.esm
_002_ Tribunal.esm
_003_ Bloodmoon.esm
_004_ Wyrmhaven.esm
_005_ Patch for Purists.esm
_006_ Sky_Main.esm
_007_ Rise of House Telvanni.esm
_008_ Tamriel_Data.esm
_009_ TR_Mainland.esm
_010_ Cyrodiil_Main.esm
_011_ MD_Azurian Isles.esm
_012_ AreaEffectArrows.esp
_013_ Patch for Purists - Decimal Errors.ESP
_014_ Patch for Purists - Book Typos.ESP
_015_ Half11's Better Expansion Implementations.ESP
_016_ LGNPC_Merged_Lt.esp
_017_ Welcome to the Arena! v6.6.esp
_018_ TR_Preview.esp
_019_ DD_Caldera_Expansion.esp
_020_ Building Up Uvirith's Legacy1.1.ESP
_021_ TR_Travels.esp
_022_ TR_Factions.esp
_023_ Uvirith's Legacy_3.53.esp
_024_ UL_3.5_TR_18.09_Add-on.esp
_025_ UL_3.5_RoHT_1.52_Add-on.esp
_026_ The Rise of the Tribe Unmourned.esp
_027_ master_index.esp
_028_ entertainers.esp
_029_ bcsounds.esp
_030_ adamantiumarmor.esp
_031_ Siege at Firemoth.esp
_032_ LeFemmArmor.esp
_033_ EBQ_Artifact.esp
OpenMW CFG Generator -
content=Morrowind.esm
content=Tribunal.esm
content=Bloodmoon.esm
content=Patch for Purists.esm
content=Patch for Purists - Decimal Errors.ESP
content=Patch for Purists - Book Typos.ESP
content=LGNPC_Merged_Lt.esp
content=master_index.esp
content=entertainers.esp
content=bcsounds.esp
content=adamantiumarmor.esp
content=Siege at Firemoth.esp
content=LeFemmArmor.esp
content=EBQ_Artifact.esp
content=AreaEffectArrows.esp
content=Wyrmhaven.esm
content=Rise of House Telvanni.esm
content=MD_Azurian Isles.esm
content=Tamriel_Data.esm
content=TR_Mainland.esm
content=Uvirith's Legacy_3.53.esp
content=Building Up Uvirith's Legacy1.1.ESP
content=DD_Caldera_Expansion.esp
content=Half11's Better Expansion Implementations.ESP
content=The Rise of the Tribe Unmourned.esp
content=Sky_Main.esm
content=Cyrodiil_Main.esm
content=TR_Factions.esp
content=TR_Preview.esp
content=TR_Travels.esp
content=UL_3.5_TR_18.09_Add-on.esp
content=Welcome to the Arena! v6.6.esp
content=UL_3.5_RoHT_1.52_Add-on.esp
(If I should use the CFG generator load order, where should LGNPC go?)
THANKS!
Question about Load Order - mlox vs OpenMW CFG Generator
Re: Question about Load Order - mlox vs OpenMW CFG Generator
Seeing as no-one else has responded to this yet, I’ll give it a stab. Frankly I’m not really the most experienced where this sort of thing is concerned, but I can share what I know and can figure out.
I also have an interest in this given that I’m working on Portmod, a project that is, among other things, designed to document and automatically enforce this sort of thing.
I should note that this is from a technical perspective, not from any practical experience using LGNPC. Sorry in advance if this is overly detailed, but I don’t really know if what I have to say is correct, and it would be helpful to me as well as you if anyone can point out issues with my reasoning.
Given that this dialogue-only version is specifically made to be minimal and to avoid breaking quests as in the full version, hopefully there are few possible conflicts, and the only hard requirement is loading after Morrowind, given that it has no other dependencies. The main question is then: "what mods might it conflict with?".
Looking at the contents of the plugin, it contains the following types of records:
ALCH: 5
DIAL: 435
GLOB: 2
INFO: 6441
SCPT: 3
For the remaining DIAL (dialogue topics) and INFO (dialogue entries) records it’s harder to tell as the INFO records use numeric identifiers, while I think the identifiers for the DIAL records seem to also be the in-game text, so I guess you can't easily use prefixes such as in the other records to differentiate a mod's topics, however the readme notes that LGNPC both modifies existing topics and adds new ones, so while it is unlikely that other mods will modify the new topics, it is possible that LGNPC will conflict with other mods that modify the existing topics (or their responses), as you will only get the dialogue from the mod lower in the load order in this case.
Now, I don’t fully understand how INFO records work, but as far as I can tell conflicts should only occur if the identifier is the same; different mods should be able to add responses to a topic without conflicting with each other at all. There appears to be response chains of some sort (there is a linked list of some sort connecting INFO records together, not to mention that they seem to be positionally related to the DIAL records), and I don’t know how those are affected by INFO records from different plugins, but my best guess is that conflicts should only occur if the response itself is overridden by another response with the same identifier (it would be great if anyone could chime with more details here, as I couldn’t find much information online).
Given that by the sounds of it the dialogue-only version contains just flavour text, it should be safe to override LGNPC dialogue entries with those from other mods, so you probably want to put LGNPC as high in your load order as possible (i.e. right below the morrowind plugins) since other mods may rely on the conflicting dialogue topics for quests etc. You lose out on the LGNPC version of the text for such topics, but this should be the more compatible way. Frankly I have no idea if any mods in your load order will conflict with the dialogue in LGNPC, but if they do this would be the safe way to do it, and if not then the load order won’t matter.
Another interesting question is whether or not this should load before or after patch for purists. Again this comes down to whether or not there are actual conflicts, however unless anyone else knows any better I think you could probably put this after patch for purists, as any issues fixed by patch for purists are unlikely to be re-introduced in LGNPC. I’m not really sure about this, and again, putting it before patch for purists is likely the safest way, but I think it’s probably safe to load it after patch for purists (interestingly this is exactly what you seem to have done).
It actually occurs to me that all but a few of the mods in your load order are already in the Portmod mods repo, so I could reproduce your setup fairly easily and then throw together a tool to detect potential plugin conflicts (which I planned to do eventually anyway). Maybe I'll do that if I have time later.
I also have an interest in this given that I’m working on Portmod, a project that is, among other things, designed to document and automatically enforce this sort of thing.
I should note that this is from a technical perspective, not from any practical experience using LGNPC. Sorry in advance if this is overly detailed, but I don’t really know if what I have to say is correct, and it would be helpful to me as well as you if anyone can point out issues with my reasoning.
Given that this dialogue-only version is specifically made to be minimal and to avoid breaking quests as in the full version, hopefully there are few possible conflicts, and the only hard requirement is loading after Morrowind, given that it has no other dependencies. The main question is then: "what mods might it conflict with?".
Looking at the contents of the plugin, it contains the following types of records:
ALCH: 5
DIAL: 435
GLOB: 2
INFO: 6441
SCPT: 3
- Spoiler: Show
For the remaining DIAL (dialogue topics) and INFO (dialogue entries) records it’s harder to tell as the INFO records use numeric identifiers, while I think the identifiers for the DIAL records seem to also be the in-game text, so I guess you can't easily use prefixes such as in the other records to differentiate a mod's topics, however the readme notes that LGNPC both modifies existing topics and adds new ones, so while it is unlikely that other mods will modify the new topics, it is possible that LGNPC will conflict with other mods that modify the existing topics (or their responses), as you will only get the dialogue from the mod lower in the load order in this case.
Now, I don’t fully understand how INFO records work, but as far as I can tell conflicts should only occur if the identifier is the same; different mods should be able to add responses to a topic without conflicting with each other at all. There appears to be response chains of some sort (there is a linked list of some sort connecting INFO records together, not to mention that they seem to be positionally related to the DIAL records), and I don’t know how those are affected by INFO records from different plugins, but my best guess is that conflicts should only occur if the response itself is overridden by another response with the same identifier (it would be great if anyone could chime with more details here, as I couldn’t find much information online).
Given that by the sounds of it the dialogue-only version contains just flavour text, it should be safe to override LGNPC dialogue entries with those from other mods, so you probably want to put LGNPC as high in your load order as possible (i.e. right below the morrowind plugins) since other mods may rely on the conflicting dialogue topics for quests etc. You lose out on the LGNPC version of the text for such topics, but this should be the more compatible way. Frankly I have no idea if any mods in your load order will conflict with the dialogue in LGNPC, but if they do this would be the safe way to do it, and if not then the load order won’t matter.
Another interesting question is whether or not this should load before or after patch for purists. Again this comes down to whether or not there are actual conflicts, however unless anyone else knows any better I think you could probably put this after patch for purists, as any issues fixed by patch for purists are unlikely to be re-introduced in LGNPC. I’m not really sure about this, and again, putting it before patch for purists is likely the safest way, but I think it’s probably safe to load it after patch for purists (interestingly this is exactly what you seem to have done).
It actually occurs to me that all but a few of the mods in your load order are already in the Portmod mods repo, so I could reproduce your setup fairly easily and then throw together a tool to detect potential plugin conflicts (which I planned to do eventually anyway). Maybe I'll do that if I have time later.
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AnyOldName3
- Posts: 2674
- Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 03:25
Re: Question about Load Order - mlox vs OpenMW CFG Generator
The sooner LOOT has Morrowind support, the better. That's way too much thinking for the average person to have to deal with just to mod a game.
Regarding order relative to patch mods, you should load patch mods as early as possible. They don't intend to add or change content, just make what's already there work properly, so if they conflict with something, it's always going to be because the other thing is trying to do something more interesting. If this causes problems, you should nag the mod author to sort it out.
Regarding order relative to patch mods, you should load patch mods as early as possible. They don't intend to add or change content, just make what's already there work properly, so if they conflict with something, it's always going to be because the other thing is trying to do something more interesting. If this causes problems, you should nag the mod author to sort it out.
Re: Question about Load Order - mlox vs OpenMW CFG Generator
@bmw - I really appreciate the detailed reply. That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Currently I've resigned to having lgnpc immediately after patch for purists, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. I sort of figured that would be the best compromise, but I've pretty minimal experience with the technical side of morrowind modding.
@AnyOldName - I'm with you. It's typically a real headache figuring out the finer details of modding any ES game
@AnyOldName - I'm with you. It's typically a real headache figuring out the finer details of modding any ES game
Re: Question about Load Order - mlox vs OpenMW CFG Generator
AnyOldName3 wrote: ↑31 Jul 2019, 04:09 The sooner LOOT has Morrowind support, the better. That's way too much thinking for the average person to have to deal with just to mod a game.
Basically the idea behind Portmod: Automate everything and make the user only have to worry about subjective things like mods to install and optional features.
Sorting plugins ended up being included in Portmod rather than using existing solutions since we needed to automate sorting data directories anyway, and the idea itself is not difficult, the only complicated part is building up the sorting rules not enforced by master files (something LOOT would also need to support Morrowind). As far as I know there's nothing special LOOT does that Portmod doesn't also do (or rather, the one thing they are doing extra is overlap rules, but esplugin will need some work before I can implement that, admittedly work that I did start the other day).
I'd be interested in sharing rules with LOOT if they do eventually support Morrowind though, as it would be relatively simple to write a script that can pull rules out of the Portmod mod repo. It would be somewhat harder the other way around, though still possible. Integrating rules from mlox is also on the list of things to do, though the mlox rule list doesn't seem to be particularly well documented in terms of detailing why rules are included. I'd rather only include rules if we know precisely why they are needed.