Record Modification Status

Involved development of the OpenMW construction set.
Chris
Posts: 1298
Joined: 04 Sep 2011, 08:33

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by Chris » 23 Mar 2013, 19:48

Zini wrote:But again, that is just one of an infinite number of cases where a modification to a plugin can cause other stuff to break.
Sure, but it's a pretty easy mistake to make for beginner modders, or even seasoned modders. Some good mods get ruined because they deleted a record that is still access somewhere or that another mod uses.

I'm merely suggesting that deleted records should visually stand out, and have a warning associated with it. I'm not saying we should disallow it, or try to automatically "repair" it. But a warning should be relatively simple to do, and it would avoid a lot of unneeded headaches for both mod makers and mod users. Just because there's a million things a mod can do to break the game doesn't mean we shouldn't warn about common pitfalls, IMO; part of user-friendliness is warning when doing a known dangerous operation, and deleting records definitely fits.
sirherrbatka wrote:maybe a red frame around the whole record on list for removed entry?
A red or deep-orange tinted background would probably work, along with an X or whatever icon is decided on.

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Zini
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Joined: 06 Aug 2011, 15:16

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by Zini » 23 Mar 2013, 20:33

IMO; part of user-friendliness is warning when doing a known dangerous operation
I certainly agree on that for operations that are actually dangerous, i.e. that cause permanent loss of or damage to data. But that is not the case here. Flagging a record as deleted does not destroy any data. When it is found that a record was deleted erroneously, all that has to be done is to load the plugin into the CS and revert the delete operation.
Sure, but it's a pretty easy mistake to make for beginner modders, or even seasoned modders
I don't remember ever seeing this mistake being made, but my modding experience is mostly limited to Redemption. Maybe my sample size is too small.
IIRC correctly the delete operation was bound to the backspace key. That might result in accidental deletion. Maybe just using a different shortcut (one that is not used for anything else in a different context) would be enough to avoid such mistakes.

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sirherrbatka
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011, 17:21

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by sirherrbatka » 23 Mar 2013, 21:35

Today I made this icons. Simple icons, simple and easy work but I'm happy with the effect and I suspect you will want to keep it. :-)

Chris
Posts: 1298
Joined: 04 Sep 2011, 08:33

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by Chris » 23 Mar 2013, 21:47

Zini wrote:I don't remember ever seeing this mistake being made, but my modding experience is mostly limited to Redemption. Maybe my sample size is too small.
It's enough of a problem with Oblivion and Skyrim modding that even BOSS warns about it (along with identical-to-master records/dirty edits). If you expect OpenMW modding to take off, I can almost guarantee there'll be beginners who do it without knowing any better, marring otherwise potentially good work, and regulars who do it during a derp moment.

It's easy enough to repair, sure, but it stills seems to be an unnecessary hassle to go back and edit the plugin after a user discovers it messes up their game (hopefully they still have a version of that release's esp(s) to edit), then re-upload a fixed version to all the various mod hosting sites it may be on (hopefully they don't have hundreds of megs of custom meshes, textures, and sounds), if it could've been avoided with a simple warning dialog that makes sure they understand the consequences a delete record can have.

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Zini
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Re: Record Modification Status

Post by Zini » 24 Mar 2013, 14:04

I still don't see the point.

Clumsy finger mistakes should be sorted out by a better shortcut.

Logical mistakes by experienced developers should not be a problem.

Logical mistakes by newbies are a problem, but just telling them to not touch the delete function won't fix anything. Before you can hope to do something substantial enough with the CS, that publishing it and having mistakes in the published content file becomes an issue, you need to understand at least the basics of records.
We make that more clear than the original CS already, since we have a separate column for the modification status and we also do not mix up different stati. Still, the user need to understand what using delete means and when he should use revert instead of delete (and when it doesn't matter).


That being said, I am not outright against a warning dialogue, as long as it can be disabled. But I have no intention of implementing it myself.

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Zini
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Re: Record Modification Status

Post by Zini » 24 Mar 2013, 14:07

@sirherrbatka: Can we please avoid spaces in file names? These are universally disliked by coders.

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pvdk
Posts: 517
Joined: 12 Aug 2011, 16:34

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by pvdk » 24 Mar 2013, 15:04

Zini wrote:That being said, I am not outright against a warning dialogue, as long as it can be disabled. But I have no intention of implementing it myself.
You could re-use the checkable messagebox from the launcher for that, just have the checkbox text say "Do not show this dialog again."

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sirherrbatka
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011, 17:21

Re: Record Modification Status

Post by sirherrbatka » 24 Mar 2013, 15:38

I will get rid of spaces in filenames and directory names… but not today…

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