The new MWSE-Lua interface

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davidcernat
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by davidcernat » 06 Oct 2018, 05:21

Cammera wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:15
davidcernat wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 04:06
[This whole wall of text of screencaps]
It's... very very, mean spirited, disappointingly so, to bring up conversations from chatrooms outside of them. What a wonder, people is more candid with their words when they're sharing banter with friends.
Imagine if someone recorded stuff you said in a bar, right after arguing with your wife, and then played it to her claiming moral superiority. That's how low this stoops.
So he called psi29a a piece of shit to his face, and that's just "banter"?

Well, it just so happens, I specifically asked if it was banter:

Image

Hey, look at that. A clarification.

Cammera, did Null ask for some backup again? I'm sure you have better things to do.

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akortunov
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by akortunov » 06 Oct 2018, 05:34

Cammera wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:15
Echoes and Paranormal are examples in HL.
A quite bad examples since these mods (Echoes and PARANOIA, I suppose) are Windows-only despite of official native Linux HL port.
There are people on these mods pages which complain about it, but devs just do not have people to implement binary hacks for Linux version.

Also these hacks are supposed to enhance graphics, what requires a very good programming (especially with OpenGL/DirectX) skills and a good understanding about how original program works (maybe including reverse-engeneering). In case of OpenMW we accept patches to improve graphics even prior 1.0, so there is no need for OpenMW-specific double of MGE.
Last edited by akortunov on 06 Oct 2018, 05:51, edited 3 times in total.

NullCascade
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by NullCascade » 06 Oct 2018, 05:39

davidcernat wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:21
Cammera, did Null ask for some backup again? I'm sure you have better things to do.
I've never asked for backup. Go get some rest man, you're being an ass, and that's not usually the case. Don't let people like Psi and I get to you.
MWSE 2.x lead.

Chris
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by Chris » 06 Oct 2018, 05:48

Cammera wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:15
Gasp, people might make stupid choices.
So enabling native code plugins is a stupid choice?
Time to remove SU access to all linux distros because people might run apt remove libc.
People aren't told to run apt remove libc. People are told to not run apps as root, and many apps will even have problems when run as root (and potentially cause further problems that manifest later). However to properly manage a desktop system, root is required from time to time.
Don't act like every single user is an idiot who will install all of the viruses.
Please point out where I said or implied that.

What I said was, a warning won't do anything. People who know not to do those things won't, so would never see the warning. People who take the risk (including people who are careful about what they do and use) would have already made the decision to before the option gets enabled. It's not that every user is an idiot, it's that a warning when enabling the option doesn't solve anything.

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akortunov
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by akortunov » 06 Oct 2018, 06:07

Also I still did not get any good example of mods that use binary plugins. A given examples either:
1. Do not use binary plugins at all
2. Windows-only
3. For finished programs that will not change in foreseen future
4. Unstable
5. Hell to maintain

So for now we argue just about teoretic possibility to load binary plugins.
Since they require a better programming skills than work with source code, what is out of average modmaker skills, I doubt that this feature will be widerly used in modding community.

Also there were Oblivion and Skyrim examples as games which support binary plugins. Do we talk about plugins, officially supported by Bethesda on binary level, or just about 3d-party script/graphics extenders, which inject to memory of main executable?
In latter case I can remember only three such popular mods for Morrowind in last 15 years: MGE XE (most features of this plugin should be embedded in the engine), MWSE (most of features of this plugin (2.x version) also should be embedded in the engine in some form) and MWE (which is outdated since MWSE 2 release). Also the main reason why these mods use binary hacks - lack of access to Morrowind source code.
Last edited by akortunov on 06 Oct 2018, 06:23, edited 9 times in total.

davidcernat
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by davidcernat » 06 Oct 2018, 06:13

NullCascade wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:39
I've never asked for backup. Go get some rest man, you're being an ass, and that's not usually the case. Don't let people like Psi and I get to you.
What, should I let a loud-mouthed bully like you endlessly harass my friends because they're too nice and intellectual to do anything about you? Maybe you should just stick to your Discord server where you brag about your ugly hacks all day to clueless non-coders and where you talk at length about your great professional experience at the one amazing game engine job you once had that you were fired from so you could be replaced with cheaper labor.

NullCascade
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by NullCascade » 06 Oct 2018, 06:19

davidcernat wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 06:13
NullCascade wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:39
I've never asked for backup. Go get some rest man, you're being an ass, and that's not usually the case. Don't let people like Psi and I get to you.
What, should I let a loud-mouthed bully like you endlessly harass my friends because they're too nice and intellectual to do anything about you? Maybe you should just stick to your Discord server where you brag about your ugly hacks all day to clueless non-coders and where you talk at length about your great professional experience at the one amazing game engine job you once had that you were fired from so you could be replaced with cheaper labor.
Stop it. You'll make me cry.
MWSE 2.x lead.

Cammera
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by Cammera » 06 Oct 2018, 08:38

Chris wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 05:48
What I said was, a warning won't do anything. People who know not to do those things won't, so would never see the warning. People who take the risk (including people who are careful about what they do and use) would have already made the decision to before the option gets enabled. It's not that every user is an idiot, it's that a warning when enabling the option doesn't solve anything.
This isn't editing the kernel, or editing xorg.conf files or replacing a system32 dll. This is... installing software from the internet. The same thing you do when you install OpenMW.
The entire stance is that even if someone knows the risk and decides they'll simply be careful, no, you know better than them and can gate them out of it. It's stupid and arrogant and, and this is the part I genuinely take issue with, requires every part involved to go the extra mile. I understand binary compatibility is an issue, and my proposition is that you heartily request that modders upload their binaries along with the sourcecode and compiling instructions, or link to a git repo. Can't you include some licence that basically makes it so any mod that doesn't comply to it must be removed from nexus?
Cammera, did Null ask for some backup again? I'm sure you have better things to do.
...excuse me? No, is that the game now? Anyone you disagree with is... part of the Macabre League of OpenMW Destroyers now, or something? People agrees with you, when did you see anyone asking if you'd gone to ask for support? Do you even realize how bafflingly stupid this is?

If this argument turned into such a shitshow (What a surprise) is because you guys really like acting attacked over different points of view. You're the ones who have directly lied, went to chatrooms to fish for people being meany means in unrelated discussions, and worn tinfoil hats because people disagreed with you.
No one wants to kill MW or tear OpenMW apart by the feelsies; I expect that if someone feels insulted by something outside this argument, they can talk it over in PMs, but clearly I expect wrong.

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lysol
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by lysol » 06 Oct 2018, 09:18

So I'm away for a day and then this. Nice.

Guys, calm down, please. We're on the level of having to ban people now, which is really not what we need. Discussing stuff is a good thing, but we need to actually listen to each other's arguments without being sarcastic and rude at each other. But it seems this is impossible for some. And don't think I'm picking sides here, both sides need to calm down.

It's apparent that the utter majority, if not all, of the OpenMW developers are behind Zini's opinion on sandboxing after discussing the matter several times, arguing back and forth. The only one I know of that actually changed his opinion after hearing arguments is AnyOldName3, and he changed his opinion from non-sandboxing to sandboxing. So sandboxing is then apparently the way we should go. Deal with it.

So can we now just settle this discussion? And can we also stop pretending sandboxing is the end of the fucking modding scene?! Because the source code IS available, you can actually do everything you ever dreamed of. Just not the way you might have preferred to do it.

And if we stop constructing some kind of conflict between MWSE-Lua devs and OpenMW devs (seriously, just wtf), we might even get compatibility for most mods between the two projects. This type of collaberation will never happen between people that hate each other.
Normal mapped texture replacers, exclusive for OpenMW:
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SeaFox
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Re: The new MWSE-Lua interface

Post by SeaFox » 06 Oct 2018, 12:21

lysol wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 09:18
And if we stop constructing some kind of conflict between MWSE-Lua devs and OpenMW devs (seriously, just wtf), we might even get compatibility for most mods between the two projects. This type of collaberation will never happen between people that hate each other.
Good point.

I think the biggest problem is that people tend to take the attitude of "it's my way or the highway". There is no willingness to compromise. For example, sand-boxing (no plugins allowed) is made mandatory instead of just being set as the default behavior with some option to change that default for those who don't want sand-boxing. Again, it's "my way or the highway".

I can certainly understand the benefits of sand-boxing, but am baffled by the sort of absolute paranoia here which compels people to want to make it mandatory with no possibility to disable it for those who don't want it.

Two good examples of the benefits of using a plugin architecture are web browsers and Blender. They all use plugins extensively:
Firefox Add-ons

20 Free Blender Add-ons

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