The new MWSE-Lua interface

[lysol]

I predict this to be another drama discussion thread. :/

[psi29a]

Modders don't have time to learn C, learn OpenMW's internals, deal with draconian Linux-hyperfocused practices, or be professional developers in their spare time.

You're right, we don't want modders to do that, that is why we want a sandboxed Lua environment. You, however, do this with MWSE because Morrowind forces you to do so. That's fine, do whatever you want.

They want to connect some APIs to cobble together their mod, pull in any libraries to do what OpenMW doesn't do out of the box, and ship their mod in a reasonable time frame.

Again, you're correct. OpenMW doesn't _yet_ do this. We want to, its even on the roadmap! Sandboxed Lua that exposes the internals of OpenMW is the future! No need for a Modder to cobble together third-party libraries like you would want them to.

Forks and pull requests are not the way to create mods, and OpenMW's design decisions continue to be utterly baffling.

Now you're just being silly and worse, disingenuous. No forks are PRs will be necessary to create mods, but you seem intent that that is the case. Forks and PRs are for developers, not modders. That is how OpenMW moves forward unless you would rather OpenMW not be developed at all.

It's literally a meme at this point, software that gets made fun of in chat rooms, instead of the golden bastion of modding that it could be if it stopped shooting itself in the foot. You guys have way more potential with this project than I'll ever have with MWSE. Stop making us facepalm.

Instead of helping build OpenMW, you would rather bring it down. If that makes you happy, cool, OpenMW wishes that you keep making MWSE and Morrowind awesome anyway.

[lysol]

+1

[NullCascade]

Now you're just being silly and worse, disingenuous. No forks are PRs will be necessary to create mods, but you seem intent that that is the case. Forks and PRs are for developers, not modders. That is how OpenMW moves forward unless you would rather OpenMW not be developed at all.

Ah, I'm glad to admit that I'm wrong. I thought that weapon sheathing was its own PR. I didn't know it was made with OpenMW-CS and no C code at all. You have my congratulations for such a fine modding API that allows such edits.

Come on. Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining. I have eyes, and it's not hard to see how things work.

Instead of helping build OpenMW, you would rather bring it down. If that makes you happy, cool, OpenMW wishes that you keep making MWSE and Morrowind awesome anyway.

I wanted to help build OpenMW. OpenMW is the one that turned off Windows developers, and OpenMW is the one that rejected my offer to work on MWSE and OpenMW in tandem to create a unified modding API.

In what world does trying to get OpenMW to stop making stupid decisions that are against modders trying to bring it down? I want it to stop shooting itself in the foot so maybe, in decade 2 of its development, projects like MWSE aren't needed.

[psi29a]

I thought that weapon sheathing was its own PR. I didn't know it was made with OpenMW-CS and no C code at all. You have my congratulations for such a fine modding API that allows such edits.

Again, being disingenuous. This was something that was better baked into the engine than being left up to being a mod. Don't forget that OpenMW is still limited by oldscript and hasn't yet transitioned to newscript, so there wasn't any API to do it in the first place. Are you really going to make this your argument? I mean, the only way you were able to allow Modders to do so was to write C++ yourself with MWSE...

I wanted to help build OpenMW. OpenMW is the one that turned off Windows developers, and OpenMW is the one that rejected my offer to work on MWSE and OpenMW in tandem to create a unified modding API.

I do believe that there are active OpenMW developers that use windows... including when you were (still?) having issues. Are you telling us that you can't even follow instructions and duplicate what these developers have done? One even extended a hand to help you...

OpenMW has never rejected your offer to work with OpenMW, you have done this to yourself at, every, turn. Nothing is good enough for you, you always have an excuse. Sorry, but you own that. Why didn't you help us improve the Windows developing experience? That you didn't even bother to help but just complain says enough about you. Wanting to help and actually helping are two entirely different things.

In what world does trying to get OpenMW to stop making stupid decisions that are against modders trying to bring it down? I want it to stop shooting itself in the foot so maybe, in decade 2 of its development, projects like MWSE aren't needed.

We all know you are liberating modders with MWSE, it's very nobel of you. MWSE will always have a place in everyone's heart.

OpenMW, at this moment, doesn't offer up anything in comparison to what you have done with Morrowind. Enjoy that success!

[NullCascade]

I thought that weapon sheathing was its own PR. I didn't know it was made with OpenMW-CS and no C code at all. You have my congratulations for such a fine modding API that allows such edits.

Again, being disingenuous. This was something that was better baked into the engine than being left up to being a mod. Don't forget that OpenMW is still limited by oldscript and hasn't yet transitioned to newscript, so there wasn't any API to do it in the first place. Are you really going to make this your argument? I mean, the only way you were able to allow Modders to do so was to write C++ yourself with MWSE...

I wanted to help build OpenMW. OpenMW is the one that turned off Windows developers, and OpenMW is the one that rejected my offer to work on MWSE and OpenMW in tandem to create a unified modding API.

I do believe that there are active OpenMW developers that use windows... including when you were (still?) having issues. Are you telling us that you can't even follow instructions and duplicate what these developers have done? One even extended a hand to help you...

OpenMW has never rejected your offer to work with OpenMW, you have done this to yourself at, every, turn. Nothing is good enough for you, you always have an excuse. Sorry, but you own that. Why didn't you help us improve the Windows developing experience? That you didn't even bother to help but just complain says enough about you. Wanting to help and actually helping are two entirely different things.

In what world does trying to get OpenMW to stop making stupid decisions that are against modders trying to bring it down? I want it to stop shooting itself in the foot so maybe, in decade 2 of its development, projects like MWSE aren't needed.

We all know you are liberating modders with MWSE, it's very nobel of you. MWSE will always have a place in everyone's heart.

OpenMW, at this moment, doesn't offer up anything in comparison to what you have done with Morrowind. Enjoy that success!

[psi29a]

Exactly.

[akortunov]

thought that weapon sheathing was its own PR. I didn't know it was made with OpenMW-CS and no C code at all. You have my congratulations for such a fine modding API that allows such edits.

Just for reference: mentioned PR exists just because of lack of event-based scripting (actualy, this feature was developed in February, prior to release of MWSE sheathing mod).
Also last time I checked, mentioned MWSE mod did not provide any custom executables, just meshes and Lua scripts (which are fine), so it is a bad example.

[akortunov]

A trade-off approach:
1. Implement a Windows32-only compile-time flag which determines if Lua should be sandboxed (since modders will not bother to support other OS-es anyway).
2. Make this flag off in nightlies and common release builds.
3. Provide an additional Win32 release build, compiled with this flag.
4. During first run show a disclaimer.
If user uses mods with custom binaries, which are not a part of OpenMW, and encounters a bug which is not reproducable on common OpenMW packages, suggest him to ask for help from authors of these mods and\or binaries, since OpenMW team has no control over code of 3d-party applications.

[NullCascade]

A tradeoff approach:
1. Implement a Windows32-only compile-time flag which determines if Lua should be sandboxed (since modders will not bother to support other OS-es anyway).
2. Make this flag off in nightlies and common release builds.
3. Provide an additional Win32 release build, compiled with this flag.
4. During first run show a disclaimer.
If user uses mods with custom binaries, which are not a part of OpenMW, and encounters a bug which is not reproducable on common OpenMW packages, suggest him to ask for help from authors of these mods and\or binaries, since OpenMW team has no control over code of 3d-party applications.

Why make it Windows (I assume you don't explicitly mean win32)-only? Modders will support other OSes, or may want to explicitly target them. Forcing it to be Windows only out of the fear that it will only be for Windows seems self-defeating.

Sandboxing by default, and having to opt-into it is all well and good. It'd be pretty easy to determine sandboxing at game launch and set it up accordingly. Unfortunately this idea has been brought up before, and I'm pretty sure Zini shot it down hard.