Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

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akortunov
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 10 Aug 2017, 14:38

Take a look at this branch.

This formula uses an item weight instead of value. With this formula a master-thief can steal items with weight near 20 from unawared target.
Small items (money, keys, etc.) can be stealed from commoner even by novice thief.

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akortunov
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 03 Oct 2017, 20:06

I created a pull request to implement a reverse pickpocketing.

I have a lot of questions:
1.Can this feature be implemented before 1.0?
2.Should a victim use autoequipping if a player places clothing/armor to the victim's inventory?
3.Can we merge this feature with pickpocketing mechanics fix and use it as "advanced pickpocketing" config option?
4.Should we decrement a count of stolen items, if a player previously stole "reversed" item from the same victim?
5.Should the player be able to "overburden" victim by reverse pickpocketing?

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kuyondo
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by kuyondo » 03 Oct 2017, 21:52

1. I think it can be implemented, the only catch is whether or not its okay to introduce a new gameplay mechanic before 1.0.
2. This is a hard question. In my opinion, the best way is to allow only potions and ingredients in reverse pckpcket. I cannot think of a good reason to reverse pckpcket armors/clothing/miscellaneous into an npc. Its looks more like cheat to me if we allow it. You can create constant effect drain health 1 point, and just wait for npc to die.
3. I think reverse pckpcket should be based on item weight and some sneak skill. If an item weight exceeds certain threshold, then its an automatic fail.
4. Maybe its better to mark any items taken from other inventory as stolen, makes much more sense. Nobody cares if it was yours a second ago, they still have the right to it, since it was taken from their inventory.
5. Yes, if we only allow potions and ingredients, this is feasible.

Chris
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by Chris » 04 Oct 2017, 00:11

kuyondo wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:52
1. I think it can be implemented, the only catch is whether or not its okay to introduce a new gameplay mechanic before 1.0.
If it wasn't possible to do in vanilla, and it's not something you have to do, I personally don't see why not. Maybe an option if you're worried about people accidentally doing it and potentially breaking something, but otherwise, if someone's willing to put the work into it...
2. This is a hard question. In my opinion, the best way is to allow only potions and ingredients in reverse pckpcket. I cannot think of a good reason to reverse pckpcket armors/clothing/miscellaneous into an npc. Its looks more like cheat to me if we allow it. You can create constant effect drain health 1 point, and just wait for npc to die.
That was a fun thing to do in Oblivion. Though yeah, it does feel a bit like an exploit. In Oblivion the main use was to give NPCs a poisoned apple, which they'd eat at their scheduled food time and die (the Dark Brotherhood would have a restocking supply of poisoned apples after you finish their quest line). In Fallout 3 it was extended to allow reverse-pickpocketing grenades, which made it "live" and blow up on the NPC after a couple seconds.

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akortunov
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 04 Oct 2017, 08:14

kuyondo wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:52
3. I think reverse pckpcket should be based on item weight and some sneak skill. If an item weight exceeds certain threshold, then its an automatic fail.
This is not what I'm asking for. I already have a local patch to use item weight in the pickpocketing formula instead of value.
So a question, how it should be implemented:
1) Two separate options: "allow reverse pickpocketing" and "alternative pickpocketing mechanics"
2) Single option: "advanced pickpocketing", whick provides BOTH weight-based success formula and reverse pickpocketing.
And I do not see a point to use different formulas for reverse pickpocketing and common one.
kuyondo wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:52
4. Maybe its better to mark any items taken from other inventory as stolen, makes much more sense. Nobody cares if it was yours a second ago, they still have the right to it, since it was taken from their inventory.
Again, I did not get what do you mean.
If I steal "foo" from the "bar" house, I will get "foo: 1 stolen from bar" record.
If I use a reverse pickpocketing then to put "foo" to "bar" inventory, should "foo" stolen counter be decremented?
If yes, a player can "return" a previously stolen item (or a similar item as a replacement) to its owner.
kuyondo wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:52
In my opinion, the best way is to allow only potions and ingredients in reverse pckpcket.
Why should we even add this artifitial limitation?
kuyondo wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 21:52
5. Yes, if we only allow potions and ingredients, this is feasible.
Again, I did not get, how it related to potions.
If an NPC now has 295/300 encumberance, should reverse pickpocketing be limited by 300/300 encumberance, or a player can add more items (the NPC in this case will lose ability to move)?

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akortunov
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 04 Oct 2017, 08:28

As for me:

1.Yes
2.No
3.I do not know
4.Yes
5.No

Also I am not sure if we should replicate "Reverse pickpocketing kill" from Skyrim (when you put some poisons to the victim's inventory).
How it can be used:
1. Make some Drain Fatigue potions.
2. Put them to the guard in any vault.
3. Steal any item from this vault till the guard is unconscious.

Also, IIRC, the high Alchemy skill and high-quality apparatus reduce strength of potion's negative effects.
With very good apparatus a player can not create a potion with negative effects at all.

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NatalieN
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by NatalieN » 04 Oct 2017, 09:18

akortunov wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 20:06
1.Can this feature be implemented before 1.0?
Sure.
2.Should a victim use autoequipping if a player places clothing/armor to the victim's inventory?
I say no. It feels to me like the player would be dressing people. It's one thing to slip some pants into somebody's bag, but it's a whole different thing to slip pants on their legs. If the player wants to give an NPC an item with the intention of them using said item, I'm sure there are better ways of doing that.
3.Can we merge this feature with pickpocketing mechanics fix and use it as "advanced pickpocketing" config option?
No opinion. However, I'm not a fan of offering loads and loads of options.Burden of support and all that.
4.Should we decrement a count of stolen items, if a player previously stole "reversed" item from the same victim?
Only if the crime hadn't been reported yet.
5.Should the player be able to "overburden" victim by reverse pickpocketing?
No. Should attempting to do so automatically cause the pickpocket to be noticed?
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kuyondo
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by kuyondo » 04 Oct 2017, 15:41

akortunov wrote:
04 Oct 2017, 08:14
This is not what I'm asking for. I already have a local patch to use item weight in the pickpocketing formula instead of value.
So a question, how it should be implemented:
1) Two separate options: "allow reverse pickpocketing" and "alternative pickpocketing mechanics"
2) Single option: "advanced pickpocketing", whick provides BOTH weight-based success formula and reverse pickpocketing.
And I do not see a point to use different formulas for reverse pickpocketing and common one.
As a pure rpg enthusiast, I'd go for the second choice. :D
akortunov wrote:
04 Oct 2017, 08:14
Again, I did not get what do you mean.
If I steal "foo" from the "bar" house, I will get "foo: 1 stolen from bar" record.
If I use a reverse pickpocketing then to put "foo" to "bar" inventory, should "foo" stolen counter be decremented?
If yes, a player can "return" a previously stolen item (or a similar item as a replacement) to its owner.
okay.. this one is hard to determine. As for me, yes it should be decremented. Need more feedbacks though.
akortunov wrote:
04 Oct 2017, 08:14
Again, I did not get, how it related to potions.
If an NPC now has 295/300 encumberance, should reverse pickpocketing be limited by 300/300 encumberance, or a player can add more items (the NPC in this case will lose ability to move)?
Ahh, this one is interesting. My answer to this would be yes, because it makes much more sense. Moreover, most npcs have lots of unused inventory space, so you will need very heavy items(armors/weapons) to encumber them. Again, if success of reverse pckpocket is based on weight and sneak skill, this makes its more fun and fascinating.

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lysol
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by lysol » 04 Oct 2017, 17:00

My opinion on the matter:
akortunov wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 20:06
1.Can this feature be implemented before 1.0?
Yes
akortunov wrote: 2.Should a victim use autoequipping if a player places clothing/armor to the victim's inventory?
No, it would look kind of stupid IMO. But I get the point with using poison and similar.
akortunov wrote: 3.Can we merge this feature with pickpocketing mechanics fix and use it as "advanced pickpocketing" config option?
Yep, this would be nice.
akortunov wrote: 4.Should we decrement a count of stolen items, if a player previously stole "reversed" item from the same victim?
Hmm. I guess so. I mean, realistically, if I thought I had been stolen of a thing and reported to the police or whatever, then suddenly found this thing in my pocket, I'd think I just somehow missed looking in that pocket. Or something like that.
akortunov wrote: 5.Should the player be able to "overburden" victim by reverse pickpocketing?
No. I think that if you try to place something on the victim and it makes them "overburdened", the attempt should fail automatically and the victim should get alarmed.
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akortunov
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Re: Pickpocketing mechanics in OpenMW

Post by akortunov » 05 Oct 2017, 10:08

The pull request is ready for testing.

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