On file types, order and other such important trivia

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Jwcolby54
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Joined: 01 Jan 2019, 08:48
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On file types, order and other such important trivia

Post by Jwcolby54 »

I am not a gamer. Empire Deluxe is my favorite game. I played Morrowind for several years starting around 2006. All the way through the main quest. I put it down for many years and when I came back it was quite dated. Yet the game beckons. :D

I tried playing it again last week and got tons of crashes. Casting around for bug fixes I found OpenMW. Wow.

OK, so I only have a week messing with OpenMW but here's what I have discovered.

Windows 10 Dell AI1 wimpy ass dual core 4 thread 8 gig 500g SSD. Intel graphics 4400. Wimpy ass.

1) Installing it in the C drive (programs dir) caused huge issues with trying to edit stuff. Dragged and dropped to D:\ solved that. I can now edit the config file without Windows preventing saves.
2) OpenMW points to the installed version of Morrowind, but it only really uses the data directory. So I copied the data directory underneath the OpenMW directory, calling it MorrowindOrig
3) I also installed a handful of mods: - Rebirth, Tamriel_Data, Tamriel_Rebuilt.
4) My intention is to also install the "Better heads, bodies etc" mods. Not done yet.

As follows I modified the config file, I'll get to that in a minute. Moving the original Morrowind data directory into my D: drive caused issues with the Launcher / Data Files dialog. I searched for the "content list" to see if I could find a text file that holds that but no luck. Essentially I had two copies of stuff, one pointing to the original C:Program Files location and the other to the D:\OpenMW location. I ended up renaming the C: (original install) so that OpenMW could no longer find that. The next time I opened and played to the menu, that problem went away.

My objective is to simply have a single OpenMW directory that I can copy onto my computer that has everything required to run. While I do own the original game, a full install really isn't required IF the data directory resides inside of OpenMW directory and the CFG file points to it correctly. And no, I am not promoting piracy, in fact I strongly discourage that.

In various places I read that things have to be in a particular order. I assume that stuff is loaded, then things with the same name are loaded again in another file. Whichever is loaded last "wins", or remains in memory.

My load order is as follows. Please feel free to discuss what I have done, right or wrong. My objective is a literal drag and drop to get a new install (as I play it) running. On that note, I do not know if there is a way to use a variable to replace where I hard coded the D:\ path stuff. Set the path variable at the top of the file and then substitute that variable / constant in where required below. OK so...

5) I hand modified the OpenMW.CFG file as follows (some of this stuff was there already, some I reordered):

# This is the global openmw.cfg file. Do not modify!
# Modifications should be done on the user openmw.cfg file instead
# (see: https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Paths)
#
#BSA SECTION
#
fallback-archive=Morrowind.bsa
fallback-archive=Tribunal.bsa
fallback-archive=Bloodmoon.bsa
fallback-archive=PT_Data.bsa
fallback-archive=TR_Data.bsa
#
#Plugin section
#
content=Morrowind.esm
content=Tribunal.esm
content=Bloodmoon.esm
content=Tamriel_Data.esm
content=TR_Mainland.esm
content=A_good_place_to_stay_Ver_1_8.esp
content=A_good_place_to_stay_Teleport_Addon.esp
#content=Sky_Main.esp
#
#DATA section
#
#data=data
data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\MorrowindOrig"
data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\Tamriel_Rebuilt"
data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\Tamriel_Data"
data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\Rebirth"
data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\AGoodPlaceToStay"
datalocal="?userdata?data"
#data="D:\OpenMW 0.44.0\Data Files\teleport_ring"
#
resources=resources
script-blacklist=Museum
script-blacklist=MockChangeScript
script-blacklist=doortestwarp
script-blacklist=WereChange2Script
script-blacklist=wereDreamScript2
script-blacklist=wereDreamScript3
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AnyOldName3
Posts: 2668
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 03:25

Re: On file types, order and other such important trivia

Post by AnyOldName3 »

The intended way of using OpenMW right now is to have it installed somewhere and then you edit the settings files in your Documents/My Games/OpenMW directory. This is why it says

Code: Select all

# This is the global openmw.cfg file. Do not modify!
# Modifications should be done on the user openmw.cfg file instead
# (see: https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Paths)
at the top of your openmw.cfg. Saves are also saved to the Documents/My Games/OpenMW directory. If you stick to editing the versions of files you're supposed to, you won't have any issues with permissions or anything like that.

What you seem to want is a way of having a portable install. We don't really support that yet. Someone started some work on it, but there isn't really a nice way of doing it without rethinking a lot of things. It's something fairly likely to be possible in some way in the future, though.
Jwcolby54
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Joined: 01 Jan 2019, 08:48
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Re: On file types, order and other such important trivia

Post by Jwcolby54 »

Lol. Two things.

A portable install, at least where I have what I want installed, seems to be a no brainer. Afaict that is what I have. At most I have to modify the path lines to point to the location I placed the directory. I did not specify where to do the install and openmw "chose" c:/program files. In that location I was totally unable to edit anything. It appears to be a windows 10 "protect the user" thing. By moving the install to a non protected area I could do what I want.

As for editing the "user openmw.cfg"... Follow the link in the config file and you will find a bunch of gobbledegook. The installer did NOT place my install there nor does it discuss in any manner what is meant by "user openmw.cfg". Therefore I ignored it.

So... If you are serious about that stuff at the top of the file, then make it useful. I have been a developer my entire life. My mantra is that it is not the user's job to guess how stuff works, it is the developer's job to make it work. And explain clearly what is expected of the user. Applying mods in openmw apparently REQUIRES editing the configuration file. If the file I edited is not the right one then the developer failed to clearly instruct me what to do.

In fact that is exactly the point of this thread. The internet is full of examples of editing the file I edited. Why is that?

Please do educate us in clear, concise and unambiguous terms what I should have done.

Respectfully

Jwc
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AnyOldName3
Posts: 2668
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 03:25

Re: On file types, order and other such important trivia

Post by AnyOldName3 »

Respectfully
Maybe try and make that a little more clear with the language you use in the rest of the post. If we're going to get pedantic about authors making things clear instead of users, it's best to do so without writing easily misinterpreted things yourself. :P

Anyway, onto the meat of the topic at hand...
A portable install, at least where I have what I want installed, seems to be a no brainer. Afaict that is what I have. At most I have to modify the path lines to point to the location I placed the directory. I did not specify where to do the install and openmw "chose" c:/program files. In that location I was totally unable to edit anything. It appears to be a windows 10 "protect the user" thing. By moving the install to a non protected area I could do what I want.
The installer definitely asks you where you want OpenMW to be installed, so I'm guessing when you say you didn't specify anything, you just assumed the default would work? There are absolutely no problems with using Program Files as the install location provided you use OpenMW as it's intended to be used. Preventing users from editing stuff inside Program Files has been a thing since Vista, and it's widely regarded as a mistake that it wasn't prevented back in like Windows 3 - every other mainstream OS (e.g. every Unix, including Linux and MacOS) has prevented it without root access from the start, and if Windows users hadn't got used to being able to mess with things they weren't supposed to, they wouldn't find it weird that they can't any more. You're going to have other issues if you think simply moving OpenMW and editing the wrong configuration file is enough to make OpenMW portable, though. For a start, other stuff, like saves, is saved to the Documents/My Games/OpenMW directory, too, and there's no way around that.
As for editing the "user openmw.cfg"... Follow the link in the config file and you will find a bunch of gobbledegook. The installer did NOT place my install there nor does it discuss in any manner what is meant by "user openmw.cfg". Therefore I ignored it.
(In case anyone else is reading this and doesn't want to scroll up, the linked page is https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Paths)

I don't think there's any way a reasonable person could describe that as gobbledegook. You know you want to edit your configuration file, you know you're using Windows, and you can just look at the path right next to configuration files under the Windows heading, go there, and edit the file. If someone struggles with that (e.g. they're completely new to computers and don't know that slashes represent directory separators or something like that), the reasonable reaction wouldn't be to ignore the bit of text saying not to do something and do it anyway, but instead would be to ask for clarification - no one's complained that that documentation is unclear yet, so we didn't even know you might be having this issue.
So... If you are serious about that stuff at the top of the file, then make it useful. I have been a developer my entire life. My mantra is that it is not the user's job to guess how stuff works, it is the developer's job to make it work. And explain clearly what is expected of the user. Applying mods in openmw apparently REQUIRES editing the configuration file. If the file I edited is not the right one then the developer failed to clearly instruct me what to do.
We literally told you not to do what you did. While it's a nice sentiment to consider all user errors to actually be user interface errors, there's not much we can do if you're going to go against an instruction and also remove your OS' protection from a file when that tries to stop you without physically having someone at your house to restrain you. I really have no idea what more you think we could have done here.

At the end of all this, there's not yet any way to have an actual portable install of OpenMW, which is why you've hit hurdles when trying to make one - it's just not been designed with that in mind, and there's not actually any universal way to add this into an application - different ones do it in different ways, even ones designed from scratch with it in mind. There's a surprising amount of design work that needs to be done before we can commit to one path or the other, as rushing this kind of thing just adds more potential for problems to be missed.

If you have constructive suggestions on how to change things, we can look into them, but unfortunately, just saying you found something confusing isn't enough - if we add a wall of text making everything super explicit, that would make the problem worse if it turned out you had found the information too dense, and streamlining it would make it worse if you found it too vague.
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Enkida
Posts: 51
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 20:57

Re: On file types, order and other such important triviae

Post by Enkida »

IDK man. I‘m not a developer, in fact, I‘m a flaky artist, and I only installed Win10 on my computer last year, and OpenMW is literally the second piece of software I installed on Win10 after my new drawing tablet driver.

I would also say I am less tech, code, and even Windows savvy than about 90% of the users in this forum AND on the Morrowind modding subreddit.

While I agree with you (I think?) that it‘s annoying to have all your save games and config files locked down in the My Documents folder in Win10, that’s pretty much a bone to pick with every modern game installer ever since Win7, not just OpenMW. Apart from that I didn‘t have any problems installing or even modding OpenMW with all the mod things you listed, potentially wanted, and even more. I even have ongoing screenshot thread of my playthru in this forum, with a link to a pretty clear guide on how to do more in depth OpenMW modding (not written by me).

The only thing I think I did different than you was follow the OpenMW readme documentation thing to install it, then read all the instructions there on how to add mods to it properly before attempting to mod anything, rather than have a blind go at the config files by myself. Granted once I got past the 25 mod mark I had to start reading guides about how to make the mods compatible with eachother / openMW, but the base software - OpenMW - has been a clear, consise, problem free user experience for me from start to finish. There was only one hiccup when updating my version of OpenMW from .44 to .45, and that was because I didn‘t read the instructions in the OpenMW documentation first.. And I resolved it myself, too, after reading the instructuons.

I kind of think if someone like myself can do it, anyone can do it as long as they can read English. I think if you‘re a developer, if you‘ve solidly installed and modded OpenMW the way it was meant to be used, you can also more easily grasp ideas on how to make it portable afterwards, or at least fake it in a more convenient manner than learning how to code yourself. I don‘t think it‘s fair to ask the OpenMW development team to „be clearer“ or fix what literally ain‘t broke when it‘s pretty much a point and click install, with at best typing in a different drive directory at some point if you don‘t want it on your c drive.

Also, the internet told me I could wash fine art brushes in my dishwasher, use heated crayola pencils as eyeliner, and that vaccination causes autism in children. Take the advice of the internet with a pound of salt and read the instruction manual.
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