FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

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silentthief
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by silentthief » 18 Dec 2017, 15:29

AnyOldName3 wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 18:23
They can block, throttle or change anything they want now. For example, if a bill was created to bring back Net Neutrality, it would be completely fine for an ISP to make it seem as if it didn't exist to anyone using their services. Also, in the rare parts of the US where there's a choice of ISP, it would be just fine for them to block each other's sign up pages so no one could switch provider.
Its potential for abuse is staggering. The ability to redirect searches based upon the corporations beliefs in what you want (or what they believe they should provide - think of hobby lobby with religious beliefs and the insurance for same sex couples, but now take the religious belief and the ability to rewrite online access on the fly over the entirety of the internet). This is not paying more for the internet that you used to use, this infringes upon censorship and freedom of speech.

ST the not neutral
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Jemolk
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by Jemolk » 19 Dec 2017, 01:03

silentthief wrote:
18 Dec 2017, 15:29
AnyOldName3 wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 18:23
They can block, throttle or change anything they want now. For example, if a bill was created to bring back Net Neutrality, it would be completely fine for an ISP to make it seem as if it didn't exist to anyone using their services. Also, in the rare parts of the US where there's a choice of ISP, it would be just fine for them to block each other's sign up pages so no one could switch provider.
Its potential for abuse is staggering. The ability to redirect searches based upon the corporations beliefs in what you want (or what they believe they should provide - think of hobby lobby with religious beliefs and the insurance for same sex couples, but now take the religious belief and the ability to rewrite online access on the fly over the entirety of the internet). This is not paying more for the internet that you used to use, this infringes upon censorship and freedom of speech.

ST the not neutral
Yeah, exactly. It's absolutely insane. Thank goodness we can still fight back through the states and the courts. Someone commented that the FCC was looking to insert a clause that effectively asserted the rules to be exempt from judicial review. Not sure if that made it into the final version, but if I were a judge and saw that, I would immediately deem the whole thing unconstitutional. Only thing that can't be struck down by judicial review is constitutional amendments, and if an agency wants to attempt to extend that to their own orders unilaterally, the courts would not be amused.
raevol wrote:
16 Dec 2017, 21:53
Yea, the problem we have here, at least in my area, is the ISPs have monopolies over the areas they serve. So in my area my only choices are AT&T (because they are everywhere for some reason, like a disease) and Time Warner. The only other ISP even in my region is Cox, and Cox and TW divvied on the area so they don't have to compete with each other.

It's about as corrupt as you can get, but we can't do anything about it while they own all the lawmakers.
QFT. I have Comcast, since Comcast is basically the only option here. I don't think AT&T is an option for me either. There's a joke that's been making the rounds around here for a while. If you want to reduce illegal drug use, make them all legal and only available through Comcast customer service.

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raevol
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by raevol » 19 Dec 2017, 02:03

Jemolk wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 01:03
If you want to reduce illegal drug use, make them all legal and only available through Comcast customer service.
Not a bad plan!! :lol:

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Faelian
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by Faelian » 19 Dec 2017, 17:17

Considering this huge controversy, I have to ask those of You who are Americans - were internet providers abusing their power before 2015? Net Neutrality was not a thing before that and yet I don't recall anyone complaining back then so I wonder whether it's my ignorance and things were bad back then, or it's a bit of an overraction. Now, I do think that it will allow room for potential abuse which is bad, but at the same time I don't really think it is going to change that much and people are panicking without good reason.

silentthief
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by silentthief » 19 Dec 2017, 20:06

Faelian wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 17:17
Considering this huge controversy, I have to ask those of You who are Americans - were internet providers abusing their power before 2015? Net Neutrality was not a thing before that and yet I don't recall anyone complaining back then...
"The "Net Neutrality" debate erupted in 2005, when AT&T Inc. suggested it would like to charge some Web companies more for preferential treatment of their traffic. Consumer advocates and Web heavyweights like Google Inc. and Amazon Inc. cried foul, saying it's a bedrock principle of the Internet that all traffic be treated equally." (from this link --> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21376597/ns/t ... jlj91WnG00

It was abused, heres a handful of these situations where it was brought to light:
https://consumerist.com/2014/02/23/netf ... -slowdown/
https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/veriz ... o-traffic/
http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/06/technol ... /index.htm
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... -facetime/

(Its no surprise that verizon used to employ Ajit Pai as one of thier lawyers, and he went on to head the FCC to overturn this)

if you want to find more - check a given provider such as AT&T by googling the name plus "blocking throttling", such as googling this:
at&t blocking throttling

---
Faelian wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 17:17
it's a bit of an overraction. Now, I do think that it will allow room for potential abuse which is bad, but at the same time I don't really think it is going to change that much and people are panicking without good reason.
Respectfully, I disagree. The handful of examples above were only a few that were brought to the public's attention, but now they have a free pass to do whatever. The reason that this will be abused was mentioned before, you don't really have a choice of ISP in almost all locations its one choice, or none; so you either deal with the new internet which favors big business and puts the shaft to small business and the consumer, or you don't get any internet at all.

ST
(edited a couple of times for clarity)
"Hurry, hurry! Last boat to Solstheim! Until the next one. Hah-ha-hah."

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raevol
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by raevol » 19 Dec 2017, 20:15

So several points about how things work in the US. The big ISPs are all either cell phone providers, or cable TV providers. As a result, both have a huge investment in not allowing streaming video on their network. Americans have been dropping their cable like mad in favor of Netflix, which is cutting into the cable company's profits, and wrecking the telco's data-cap based plans. Especially with T-Mobile having an unlimited plan and not-unlimited plans that include free Netflix that doesn't count against your cap: T-Mobile is sort of the white knight here, even though they are far from perfect.

Add to that that Disney is buying every piece of creative IP ever, and you can see that the ISPs really want to control what you can watch where, and how. They don't want an open, competitive market of streaming services for movies and TV shows, they want you to buy cable channels in packages, sit through their commercials, and all at scheduled times that they dictate to you.

ST links some abuse cases, but remember that the world is very different in 2017 than in 2015. Sure there was Netflix back then, but now Netflix is presenting original series at Comic Con, so it has become a big deal. This sort of open competition works against cable company profits, and since it's all running across their wires, they figure they can just shut it down.

Of course the problem is that is in direct violation of the first amendment, of freedom of the press. Not that the government really cares about our rights anymore...

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Jemolk
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by Jemolk » 19 Dec 2017, 20:45

Faelian wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 17:17
Considering this huge controversy, I have to ask those of You who are Americans - were internet providers abusing their power before 2015? Net Neutrality was not a thing before that and yet I don't recall anyone complaining back then so I wonder whether it's my ignorance and things were bad back then, or it's a bit of an overraction. Now, I do think that it will allow room for potential abuse which is bad, but at the same time I don't really think it is going to change that much and people are panicking without good reason.
ISPs weren't classified as common carriers under Title II regulations prior to 2015, but we had net neutrality regulations. Unfortunately, Verizon then sued the FCC and the courts ruled that net neutrality provisions couldn't be enforced unless we had Title II classification. So it was reclassified and once again enforceable. The Ajit Pai FCC is rolling that classification back. Meaning that due to that court ruling, net neutrality regulations will be unenforceable. We've never had that before, and none of us who have to live with the results want to find out what happens then.

Also, yes, they were abusing their power prior to then. Still were afterwards, since the fines for getting caught have always been less than they stood to gain from getting away with it even briefly. Our system is fucked.


silentthief
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by silentthief » 19 Dec 2017, 21:12

:lol: :lol: :lol:

so its gonna set up a fap tax?
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Faelian
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Re: FCC Repeals Net Neutrality.

Post by Faelian » 19 Dec 2017, 21:48

Well, thanks for bringing those cases to my attention. Yeah, if they were abusing that power before, then clearly they will do the same now. The question then is, why won't more investors create ISP companies to compete with them. IF current ISP's have such a bad reputation, it shouldn't be hard to get customers to You if You have decent infrastructure and don't treat them like shit.

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