TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Not about OpenMW? Just about Morrowind in general? Have some random babble? Kindly direct it here.
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Br0ken
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TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by Br0ken » 05 Sep 2017, 17:02

Recently I stumbled across this nice software. It's a tree modeling tool with quite powerful capabilities. And completely free. ;)
http://www.evolved-software.com/treeit/treeit

Some examples how created trees looks in UE4 - https://www.artstation.com/artwork/By4R8

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Pherim
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by Pherim » 06 Sep 2017, 09:34

Very good, thank you!

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SmartGuar
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by SmartGuar » 07 Sep 2017, 16:51

Is it also free as in freedom?
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Loriel
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by Loriel » 07 Sep 2017, 17:17

SmartGuar wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 16:51
Is it also free as in freedom?
Doesn't look like it.
Main part of the licence agreement:

Code: Select all

1. This software is not to be distributed via 
any website domain without the prior written 
approval of the rightful owner.

2. This software must not be modifed, taken
apart, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble
in any manner.
Loriel

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psi29a
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by psi29a » 07 Sep 2017, 17:22

Sorry, that last part is unenforceable in the US and in the EU. The end user has rights too and they come first above that of what is written/typed in a license. The end-user has every right to modify, take apart, reverse engineer, decompile and disassemble in any manner they choose.
Fair Use: The fair use doctrine allows users to make unauthorized copies in certain circumstances. Courts have found that reverse engineering for interoperability, for example, can be a fair use.

https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/rever ... eering-faq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering

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Deltaxus
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by Deltaxus » 07 Sep 2017, 19:27

Ironically, BGS just tweeted this http://www.pcgamer.com/from-the-elder-s ... come-from/ some hours ago.

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SmartGuar
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by SmartGuar » 07 Sep 2017, 20:03

Loriel wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 17:17
Doesn't look like it.
I thought so, but didn't see any license. Thank you.
psi29a wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 17:22
Sorry, that last part is unenforceable in the US and in the EU. The end user has rights too and they come first above that of what is written/typed in a license. The end-user has every right to modify, take apart, reverse engineer, decompile and disassemble in any manner they choose.
Still, no one could distribute it in an open-Ob engine.


I remembered that Vality claimed he(/she) had created his own sort-of speed-trees.
http://mw.modhistory.com/download-53-11589
http://mw.modhistory.com/download-53-11539
Maybe someone feels inspired by his tree mods and wants to make similar ones.
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psi29a
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by psi29a » 07 Sep 2017, 20:25

SmartGuar wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:03
Still, no one could distribute it in an open-Ob engine.
Not true, if it was clean-room reverse engineered, then yes, you are allowed by law, to distribute it. We already do this in for the formulas that have been reversed engineered from Morrowind. Now if they have patents, that is another issue but we can avoid that as well by making sure that we get to the end result without implementing what is in the patent, see for example s2tc as a drop-in replacement to s3tc.

You seem to think that their will be an open-Ob engine, that is possible. However OpenMW is already heading down the road of supporting more than just Morrowind. Remember, OpenMW was originally OpenEngine, we just refocused to Morrowind early on to help get us to this point.

NIF support was also reverse-engineered, so now we have support for some Oblivion and Skyrim NIF assets.

If the idea is allow OpenMW to support what is produced by this piece of software and the only way to do that was to reverse engineer the application, we (developers) and end-users are protected in doing so.

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SmartGuar
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by SmartGuar » 07 Sep 2017, 20:47

psi29a wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:25
Not true, if it was clean-room reverse engineered, then yes, you are allowed by law, to distribute it. We already do this in for the formulas that have been reversed engineered from Morrowind. Now if they have patents, that is another issue but we can avoid that as well by making sure that we get to the end result without implementing what is in the patent, see for example s2tc as a drop-in replacement to s3tc.
There has to be something that I don't understand. If we need an alternative to Speedtree after all, then the software we use would have to be compatible with our licenses. If it isn't, then we'd have to reverse engineer it, obviously. But why is it easier reverse engineering this than reverse engineering Speedtree?
psi29a wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:25
You seem to think that their will be an open-Ob engine, that is possible. However OpenMW is already heading down the road of supporting more than just Morrowind. Remember, OpenMW was originally OpenEngine, we just refocused to Morrowind early on to help get us to this point.
Yes, exactly. By OpenOb, I meant a modified OpenMW because I know that cc9cii got the Ogre3d version to function with later games' assets.
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psi29a
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Re: TreeIt - almost Speedtree for free

Post by psi29a » 08 Sep 2017, 06:19

SmartGuar wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:47
There has to be something that I don't understand. If we need an alternative to Speedtree after all, then the software we use would have to be compatible with our licenses. If it isn't, then we'd have to reverse engineer it, obviously. But why is it easier reverse engineering this than reverse engineering Speedtree?

...

Yes, exactly. By OpenOb, I meant a modified OpenMW because I know that cc9cii got the Ogre3d version to function with later games' assets.
I think you misunderstand, the file formats and how they work (like speed tree data) isn't copyrightable or subject to license. This has already been handled in courts, for example with Microsoft and those wanting to reverse engineer their file formats for OpenOffice. There has been research into the speedtree file format, but there hasn't been enough to say "ah hah, that is how it works". Otherwise it would have already been included by now. It just takes more time and effort on that front to finally include in OpenMW. That way we can actually 'see' the trees with Oblivion and Skyrim in OpenMW proper.

Reverse engineering a file format and then using that information to render the asset in OpenMW doesn't put us in any legal danger nor that of the end user.

Anyway, the result of this software is usable for us right? (Rhetorical question.) The creator of the software cannot claim copyright or license on something you create with their software, since the copyright always goes to the creator, 'all rights reserved' by default. If the creator of the resulting wants to put it in the example-suite, they issue the example-suite a license to do so, most suitably CC-BY.

If you're still confused or concerned, you can also PM me if you want. I'm not a lawyer, but I've had to deal with enough copyright and patent stuff to know my way around. There are other more law degree types around in the forums as well to help if necessary.

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