Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Not about OpenMW? Just about Morrowind in general? Have some random babble? Kindly direct it here.
Tolchock
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by Tolchock » 29 Jan 2016, 23:12

Yep, that SMBC comic is basically it. At my very liberal university, I'd imagine 95% of students would describe themselves as egalitarians/feminists. However, the *feminist agenda* is determined by a group of, at most, 50 students (0.1% of the student body), the self-titled 'autonomous wom*n's collective' (yep, with an asterisk), who also happen to be anarchists/communists/revolutionary socialists. This group gets funding from the student union for a female-only safe space (which, in reality, is just a hang out spot for their clique, as no one else steps foot in there) and has significant influence on the student newspaper.

However, the other 99% of feminists are nothing like this, so when feminism is attacked with such vehemence I generally find it laughable, believing the perpetrator has either thought up some seriously faulty straw-men and/or is part of the opposing fringe group (i.e. return-of-kings style MRAs).

Nevertheless, you must be a bit dull if you believe the video game industry has no issues with women. AAA games are overwhelmingly marketed to males, so, unsurprisingly, are mostly played by males and often include boring, fan-service-y women (or basically have no women in them at all). To achieve the demographics of Morrowind (70/30 male/female), for example, the Dunmer must have practised sex-selective abortion so intense that their future population is completely screwed.The question is then, who cares if women don't play games or are underrepresented in them? Personally, I find it sad that a large section of the population are missing out on a developing art form which I have enjoyed so much. Indeed, the problem is circular -- women won't play games if they aren't marketed to them, games aren't marketed to them as they don't play them. E.g. My 15 year old sister showed no interest in playing Dishonoured (despite my exhortations), until she saw the trailer for Dishonoured 2 with a female protagonist. She then picked up the first game almost immediately. Hopefully as the industry matures the situation will improve.

SquireNed
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by SquireNed » 30 Jan 2016, 00:44

Tolchock wrote:Yep, that SMBC comic is basically it. At my very liberal university, I'd imagine 95% of students would describe themselves as egalitarians/feminists. However, the *feminist agenda* is determined by a group of, at most, 50 students (0.1% of the student body), the self-titled 'autonomous wom*n's collective' (yep, with an asterisk), who also happen to be anarchists/communists/revolutionary socialists. This group gets funding from the student union for a female-only safe space (which, in reality, is just a hang out spot for their clique, as no one else steps foot in there) and has significant influence on the student newspaper.

However, the other 99% of feminists are nothing like this, so when feminism is attacked with such vehemence I generally find it laughable, believing the perpetrator has either thought up some seriously faulty straw-men and/or is part of the opposing fringe group (i.e. return-of-kings style MRAs).

Nevertheless, you must be a bit dull if you believe the video game industry has no issues with women. AAA games are overwhelmingly marketed to males, so, unsurprisingly, are mostly played by males and often include boring, fan-service-y women (or basically have no women in them at all). To achieve the demographics of Morrowind (70/30 male/female), for example, the Dunmer must have practised sex-selective abortion so intense that their future population is completely screwed.The question is then, who cares if women don't play games or are underrepresented in them? Personally, I find it sad that a large section of the population are missing out on a developing art form which I have enjoyed so much. Indeed, the problem is circular -- women won't play games if they aren't marketed to them, games aren't marketed to them as they don't play them. E.g. My 15 year old sister showed no interest in playing Dishonoured (despite my exhortations), until she saw the trailer for Dishonoured 2 with a female protagonist. She then picked up the first game almost immediately. Hopefully as the industry matures the situation will improve.
Some of it has to do simply with the proportion of creatives in the market. Women can make great games, but one thing I've noted in the tabletop gaming scene is that you don't see them engaging with games. This really seems to come down to three main factors:

First, women tend to be socially steered away from gaming. While men are often given separate hobby time, and expected to waste a certain amount of time by society, women don't really have that same niche. Likewise, the fact that games are far more male-dominated than female-dominated does contribute to a certain inertia, one which is especially egregious in the tabletop gaming land by the fact that a lot of the guys involved are really sort of socially inept—men seem to be immune to social inertia, so to speak, where hanging out with "losers" doesn't automatically make someone a "loser", while women seem to have more of this social inertia. Add in general misbehavior (which happens, though not as frequently as people might think), and you have some interesting elements going on.

Second, games don't market toward women. Unless you're interested in something, you really need something to bring it to your attention, and the truth of the matter is that when I've had conversations about tabletop games with people who don't play them regularly any more but played them at some point, women actually have a fair amount of familiarity with the market, but they wouldn't ever buy or engage with roleplaying game products unless there was someone introducing them; some of this comes from the fact that their image of the market is very much chainmail bikinis and Conan, but even with a large degree of inertia the only games that I am aware of that have a particularly balanced gender ratio are kids' games and Vampire: the Masquerade.

Third, there's a certain appeal to games that differs. To avoid opening a can of worms, there is a gender difference in play preferences, though it's complicated as to whether or not social or biological factors are major concerns. The traditional D&D system, for instance, is itself basically an upgraded wargame, and as a result it's already got a fair degree of testosterone and muscle. If you look at games that are more popular among female audiences, storytelling is a key focus, with a de-emphasis on gameplay mechanics. I'd argue that this isn't because women aren't gamers in the traditional sense, but rather because of different values; male players want to slay the dragon, while female players want to slay the dragon, if that makes sense. A lot of male players are wired toward addictive/number play, the lizard brain sort of "value optimization" play, while female players tend to be drawn more to storytelling, with success being measured in narrative agency (this is true of many male players as well, and is more of a general trend than a rule). This winds up backfiring because often the best way to attain agency in a game with complex rules is to learn that value optimization, even if doing so holds relatively little interest for agency. However, my CHA 32 Sorcerer is going to whoop the heck out of a noble if it comes to fighting and violence, and male players tend to be much more willing to result to that. Further, a lot of games are built around the concept of minimizing the use of player skill so long as characters have the skills to do something; while you get benefits on social interactions for being clever, that CHA 32 Sorcerer is going to have an advantage on a social front while a noble might not.

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Okulo
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by Okulo » 30 Jan 2016, 11:03

psi29a wrote:In the absence of a 'like' button or a poll, how else would you voice your enthusiasm for a post?
If I had nothing else to say, I wouldn't. Nobody gives a shit about my enthusiasm for a post.

But if you want to post something really, really badly, you could add to it. Bring in an example, add an argument, debunk an opposing argument. Anything but the online version of grunting like a fucking caveman.
psi29a wrote:So don't get me wrong, I understand, the frustration and what has happened with #Gamergate was really shitty.
Gamergate partly has itself to blame though. They stuck to the hashtag like morons, which gave their opponents something to attack. Then it became "look what they said". The discussion devolved from "ethical issues" into "what is Gamergate".
Tolchock wrote:This group gets funding from the student union for a female-only safe space (which, in reality, is just a hang out spot for their clique, as no one else steps foot in there)
NO BOYS ALLOWED

Antsan
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Joined: 13 Mar 2014, 11:15

Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by Antsan » 30 Jan 2016, 11:40

Okulo wrote:
Tolchock wrote:This group gets funding from the student union for a female-only safe space (which, in reality, is just a hang out spot for their clique, as no one else steps foot in there)
NO BOYS ALLOWED
I want to remind you that "No girls allowed" clubs and spaces still exist, and they're not obscure at all. There is a use for these things, as long as it doesn't devolve into elitism, which it often enough does.

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Okulo
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by Okulo » 30 Jan 2016, 11:55

Exactly, that was the joke. ;)

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dEnigma
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by dEnigma » 30 Jan 2016, 21:45

Okulo wrote:
psi29a wrote:In the absence of a 'like' button or a poll, how else would you voice your enthusiasm for a post?
If I had nothing else to say, I wouldn't. Nobody gives a shit about my enthusiasm for a post.
I don't mind seeing how many people agree with a certain statement, of course people adding to it would be preferable.
But if you want to post something really, really badly, you could add to it. Bring in an example, add an argument, debunk an opposing argument. Anything but the online version of grunting like a fucking caveman.
But after all we simply are cavemen with computers, aren't we?
Some pirates achieved immortality by great deeds of cruelty or derring-do. Some achieved immortality by amassing great wealth. But the captain had long ago decided that he would, on the whole, prefer to achieve immortality by not dying

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Okulo
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by Okulo » 30 Jan 2016, 22:45

dEnigma wrote:
But if you want to post something really, really badly, you could add to it. Bring in an example, add an argument, debunk an opposing argument. Anything but the online version of grunting like a fucking caveman.
But after all we simply are cavemen with computers, aren't we?
I'm not.

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psi29a
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by psi29a » 31 Jan 2016, 08:58

Extremely apropos, we watched Quest for Fire last night with the family... my son made a remark that not much has changed. Smartass!

Just add the Internet and a bit of semi-anonymity and then you have:
Image

ezze
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by ezze » 27 Feb 2016, 11:20

I always get the feeling that the John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is backward.

People are total fuckwad as DEFAULT, but usually they have to pull back because they are afraid of social effects. On the internet one does not have those, so one simply acts naturally.
You see this also in real life when the situations imply even just a little stress. Think to streets jams or small car collisions.

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psi29a
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Re: Cultural learnings of the Internet.

Post by psi29a » 27 Feb 2016, 11:53

That is the difference between someone with a normal moral compass (being nice is normal) and one with a fucked-up compass (we have rules to make us act nice to each other).

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