Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

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DassiD
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by DassiD » 14 Jul 2018, 13:36

A shader closer to vanilla would be really good. Another thing that would be cool is tidal waters, water going in streams with changing levels according to the time of day.

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Ravenwing
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by Ravenwing » 14 Jul 2018, 17:54

A bit late to the party, but I generally approve of the changes that are being made. For inspiration on really great looking water, I've always loved the Anno 1404 water. It's a bit of a different use case than OpenMW, but I think the transparency near shore in that game is pretty spot on. I think the key is the caustics and reflection that allows us to tell there is water somewhere rather than an actual function of the water volume (murkiness). Part of what makes it difficult to make realistic water effects in games is the universality of the water shader. While sticking to one shader, we have to have something that looks good in lakes as well as oceans, which to my mind is impossible. With more than one water type, the water boundaries will be far more difficult, but hopefully simply blending the two will help until we have a more rigorous water system.

I personally think it would be best if we didn't focus too much on getting all the shader settings "just right". Modders are used to having control over so much, that they're really going to just want to mess around themselves once things are dehardcoded. For those who are able, I suggest checking out the Oblivion Reloaded water shader options, you can mess around with color, attenuation, caustics, and a few other things from within the game, which really makes it a lot easier to adjust settings.

Dynamic textures/normal maps would be amazing for things beyond water as well! Imagine having the Ghostfence be some kind of cool Gungan shield-esque barrier that undulated and rippled when you run into it! (A mod for this would also get rid of that awful flickering bug, sooooo...)

Anyway, very excited for where this all goes!

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kuyondo
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by kuyondo » 17 Jul 2018, 01:31

I figured it would also be cool if water looked more transparent near the shores and then become darker as it goes deeper.

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wareya
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by wareya » 17 Jul 2018, 02:49

The refraction setting does that.
paying attention to #1751/#1816 #2473 #3609 #3862/#3929 #3807 #4297

Ruarl
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Joined: 04 Jun 2012, 08:32

Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by Ruarl » 18 Jul 2018, 10:21

A bit late to the party, but I generally approve of the changes that are being made. For inspiration on really great looking water, I've always loved the Anno 1404 water. It's a bit of a different use case than OpenMW, but I think the transparency near shore in that game is pretty spot on. I think the key is the caustics and reflection that allows us to tell there is water somewhere rather than an actual function of the water volume (murkiness). Part of what makes it difficult to make realistic water effects in games is the universality of the water shader. While sticking to one shader, we have to have something that looks good in lakes as well as oceans, which to my mind is impossible. With more than one water type, the water boundaries will be far more difficult, but hopefully simply blending the two will help until we have a more rigorous water system.

I personally think it would be best if we didn't focus too much on getting all the shader settings "just right". Modders are used to having control over so much, that they're really going to just want to mess around themselves once things are dehardcoded. For those who are able, I suggest checking out the Oblivion Reloaded water shader options, you can mess around with color, attenuation, caustics, and a few other things from within the game, which really makes it a lot easier to adjust settings.

Dynamic textures/normal maps would be amazing for things beyond water as well! Imagine having the Ghostfence be some kind of cool Gungan shield-esque barrier that undulated and rippled when you run into it! (A mod for this would also get rid of that awful flickering bug, sooooo...)

Anyway, very excited for where this all goes!
On the topic of games that does water well, I think I will add my two cents and link this from my favorite game Path of Exile:

This post explains what they did to get their water rendering like they did. The technical details are over my head, but maybe you guys will understand some of it.

Here is a clip showcasing an early version of the water waves: Video

CMAugust
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Joined: 10 Jan 2016, 00:13

Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by CMAugust » 18 Jul 2018, 14:16

I just remembered that at least part of the ripple shader effect (or a reasonable facsimile) was implemented in pre-OSG versions: https://youtu.be/QhdSOGlHjqc?t=90
Examining its implementation could be useful to any future takers - or maybe not, given the engine changes since then.

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Ravenwing
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by Ravenwing » 19 Jul 2018, 06:10

Ruarl wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 10:21
On the topic of games that does water well, I think I will add my two cents and link this from my favorite game Path of Exile:

This post explains what they did to get their water rendering like they did. The technical details are over my head, but maybe you guys will understand some of it.

Here is a clip showcasing an early version of the water waves: Video
This post is EXACTLY what I wish we would do more often. I LOVE reading about how different complex features like this get implemented and seeing the progress. Maybe we should see if we can get in contact with this guy and pick his brain. If we could get a really realistic looking water system on top of the MGE stuff, we would definitely be the most popular way of playing Morrowind. I think on top of what has already been discussed, the foam would make the single biggest difference, but I can see how it would be super difficult.
CMAugust wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 14:16
I just remembered that at least part of the ripple shader effect (or a reasonable facsimile) was implemented in pre-OSG versions: https://youtu.be/QhdSOGlHjqc?t=90
Examining its implementation could be useful to any future takers - or maybe not, given the engine changes since then.
So that's why people on reddit are always making fun of the project, if we said we were close to 1.0 in 2014 lol. The water definitely didn't look too bad back then.

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psi29a
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by psi29a » 19 Jul 2018, 07:26

Switch to OSG from Ogre was not taken lightly, but it has been time consuming... we're still wrestling with features we already had (shadows).

Ruarl
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by Ruarl » 20 Jul 2018, 07:24

Ravenwing wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 06:10
I think on top of what has already been discussed, the foam would make the single biggest difference, but I can see how it would be super difficult.
Adding the foam would be great, but if the project ever gets to that stage it should somehow differentiate cells that are ocean water and cells that are river water. Difficult indeed. Probably will have to flag cells what type of water it contains or something similar.

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wareya
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Re: Water shaders, OpenMW vs MGEXE

Post by wareya » 20 Jul 2018, 13:06

Ruarl wrote:
20 Jul 2018, 07:24
Adding the foam would be great, but if the project ever gets to that stage it should somehow differentiate cells that are ocean water and cells that are river water. Difficult indeed. Probably will have to flag cells what type of water it contains or something similar.
There are cells where river water meets the ocean.
paying attention to #1751/#1816 #2473 #3609 #3862/#3929 #3807 #4297

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