Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

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LoneWolf
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by LoneWolf » 29 Sep 2018, 14:32

Replicating vanilla sounds nice, but what do we do with undesired behaviour in vanilla ?

some examples :
cast drain skill on yourself to lower training prices dramatically

cast fortify skill on a trainer to change what skills they train in

Koal Cave : possible to get an infinte number of enchanted dreugh cuirasses

the fortify health behaviour described at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Fortify_Health

Dark brotherhood assassins spawned in positions where they can't move at all and are easily killable that way

Are those bugs in vanilla that should be fixed or features that need to be replicated ?
If we decide they are bugs , we're deviating from vanilla behaviour.

I think openmw devs & community are doing a great job in making such decisions.
For the mod this thread is about : if the name would be something like "birthsigns_as_vanilla_intended_them" I'd welcome it.
There are plenty of birthsign mods around, one that mimics vanilla as close as possible seems like a good idea.

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wareya
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by wareya » 29 Sep 2018, 23:11

Wait for 1.0 and then make it so content developers can change the behavior? That's my guess (I'm just a contributor, not a planner).

I'm not sure about the other related bugs, though it's pretty important IMO to be able to turn normal trainers into master trainers - if you even can, then you're pretty much already post-endgame anyway.
paying attention to #1751 #2473 #3609 #3862/#3929 #3807 #4297 #4623

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Capostrophic
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Capostrophic » 30 Sep 2018, 09:42

I'm not sure about the other related bugs, though it's pretty important IMO to be able to turn normal trainers into master trainers - if you even can, then you're pretty much already post-endgame anyway.
Yep, you already can do that, that was changed recently.

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wareya
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by wareya » 30 Sep 2018, 13:47

Sweet.
paying attention to #1751 #2473 #3609 #3862/#3929 #3807 #4297 #4623

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Capostrophic
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Capostrophic » 30 Sep 2018, 20:22

In current 0.45.0 state fortify health effect acts exactly like health fortification in vanilla and only fortifies the current health (in 0.44.0 it also fortifies the maximum health like the MCP option).
Skills fortification/draining affecting training in any way is not very meaningful. It makes sense for birthsign abilities to affect the price and skill caps in their turn.
As it was said, trainers' modified skills now affect training caps.
Koal cave thing is a content file issue.

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Jemolk
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Jemolk » 03 Oct 2018, 01:43

wareya wrote:
28 Sep 2018, 00:08
We have to implement vanilla behavior for the sake of mods, too. Just because it's annoying to certain mods doesn't mean it's a bad behavior.

The vanilla behavior is not a workaround for a bug. It affects way more than just that one thing. They just implemented birthsign bonuses that way so that they showed up on the HUD, no big deal.
The problem is this: They implemented birthsign bonuses in a way that fundamentally screws up the functioning of Fortify Skill and Fortify Attribute buffs on spell type Ability effects. I'm fine with this being a toggleable option, or something, but there are plenty of ways to modify the base attribute directly, and it is exceptionally annoying from a modding standpoint to have the spell type for "permanent magical buff" be merely another of those and only that. I still maintain Bethesda chose the single worst option for accomplishing any goal they could have had. And I'm far from alone in this. I'm with you that the vanilla behavior for birthsigns should be an option. Perhaps the default option. And perhaps the only way to do this engine-side is to make abilities profoundly screwed up. But for this exact reason, there needs to be a way to revert to the sane current behavior of OpenMW.

Also, you have no idea how annoyed I am to hear that Fortify Health has been reverted. Hopefully you at least kept Fortify Magicka as somewhat vaguely functional in fortifying max magicka rather than only current, or added an option to change it back. Vanilla behavior on that is obnoxious as hell.

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Capostrophic
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Capostrophic » 03 Oct 2018, 14:18

No, any dynamic stat (health/magicka/fatigue) fortification goes through the same code.
But for this exact reason, there needs to be a way to revert to the sane current behavior of OpenMW.
Not a 1.0 blocker unlike implementing the "insane" behavior, so not bothering with that. :twisted:

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Jemolk
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Jemolk » 08 Oct 2018, 01:29

Capostrophic wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 14:18
No, any dynamic stat (health/magicka/fatigue) fortification goes through the same code.
But for this exact reason, there needs to be a way to revert to the sane current behavior of OpenMW.
Not a 1.0 blocker unlike implementing the "insane" behavior, so not bothering with that. :twisted:
*sigh* Was that really a 1.0 blocker? I can hardly imagine any benefit to doing it the vanilla way, ever, for anyone or any purpose. But I suppose if it gets us closer to 1.0 and thus closer to dehardcoding and LUA, it's better to have drain and fortify effects for health/magicka/fatigue to be utterly worthless on every level than to have to wait longer for 1.0. :|

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wareya
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by wareya » 08 Oct 2018, 07:43

Here's my view on it: aside from terrible engine bugs like being able to jump through geometry or kill things with lockpicks, OpenMW should be close enough to vanilla Morrowind engine-wise that speedrunners might be willing to speedrun OpenMW. Not on the same leaderboards as the vanilla engine, but as a thing, in its own category. If there are any obvious mechanical differences (like a buff working differently or something costing the wrong amount of money), then it's basically not even the same game.

Of course, they won't, because there are always going to be differences that are virtually impossible to fix like how stealth training is messed up (in vanilla, and also OpenMW as of 0.43 which was a while ago) and the physics/collision is always going to be different, but it should be as close as possible.
paying attention to #1751 #2473 #3609 #3862/#3929 #3807 #4297 #4623

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Jemolk
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Re: Fix The Lady Lover and Steed Birthsigns

Post by Jemolk » 08 Oct 2018, 07:47

wareya wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 07:43
Here's my view on it: aside from terrible engine bugs like being able to jump through geometry or kill things with lockpicks, OpenMW should be close enough to vanilla Morrowind engine-wise that speedrunners might be willing to speedrun OpenMW. Not on the same leaderboards as the vanilla engine, but as a thing, in its own category. If there are any obvious mechanical differences (like a buff working differently or something costing the wrong amount of money), then it's basically not even the same game.

Of course, they won't, because there are always going to be differences that are virtually impossible to fix like how stealth training is messed up (in vanilla, and also OpenMW as of 0.43 which was a while ago) and the physics/collision is always going to be different, but it should be as close as possible.
I suppose you have a point here. It'll end up being up to mods to deviate from vanilla behavior then. My one issue right now with the birthsign thing is that mods can recreate vanilla behavior, but can't currently recreate OpenMW's alternate behavior, and losing options always makes me sad, even if you're right and it needs to happen.

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