2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

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WeirdSexy
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by WeirdSexy » 30 Nov 2012, 19:09

Hmm, I didn't realize that everyone had such varied ideas of how multiplayer would function.
Here's what I assumed everyone was wanting, at least from a gameplay perspective:
  • Client/Server Model: One player hosts the game, they are the Nerevarine. Other players join this server as freelance adventurers to aid the host.
  • The freelance adventurers do not have a journal of their own. If they have access to the journal at all, it would be only to read a copy of the Nerevarine's. After all, they are not questing themselves, they are only aiding the Nerevarine.
  • Each player has their own inventory. There should be a way to share items between players. There should be some check in place to disallow non-Nerevarine clients from sharing/equipping plot (or maybe even unique) items or bringing them into the server at all.
  • I don't see any reason players should have to "stay together". Players could split up to accomplish tasks faster if they split up. Obvious freelancers shouldn't be allowed to complete quests for the Nerevarine or perform actions that require you to be the Nerevarine to do. For example, a freelancer should be allowed to actually "turn in" to a quest giver for the Nerevarine or wear the Wraithguard. They could, however, travel back to town to sell loot or go to whatever ruin on the other side of Vvardenfell to find whatever artifact and bring it back while the Nerevarine is doing something else. So long as the freelancers task doesn't involve engaging in quest dialog.
  • If you are doing singleplayer, the game pauses if you go into a menu. If you are doing multiplayer, the game doesn't pause if you go into a menu. Borderlands does this, for example.
  • Only the Nerevarine can initiate sleeping/waiting. He can only do so if all party members are not in combat/are on solid ground, etc. Or, perhaps any player can initiate sleeping/waiting, but the host has to confirm it. "WeirdSexy wants to rest, is that cool?...". Obviously, all players are affected by time advancement.
  • I'm not sure how to deal with crimes committed by freelancers. Perhaps the Nerevarine/rest of the party is only treated as criminals if they are seen with with the offending member. There's also the issue of serving jail time to consider. This could be a complicated issue.
  • I don't care how freelancer savegames/inventory/stats are affected after they leave the server.
  • Probably a bunch of other stuff I didn't think of at this moment in time.

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bwrsandman
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by bwrsandman » 30 Nov 2012, 21:02

Or, perhaps any player can initiate sleeping/waiting, but the host has to confirm it. "WeirdSexy wants to rest, is that cool?...". Obviously, all players are affected by time advancement.
Minecraft does something like this. You lie in bed until all players get to a bed, then the time advances.
You'd have to consider random encounters waking every player too. That might be strange if you're not sleeping in the same area.

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Tes96
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Tes96 » 06 Dec 2012, 21:33

I personally don't care for multi-player or even dual player. I like single-player. That's just my opinion. Although the NPC following AI could do with a huge overhaul. I hate how they get stuck and cannot enter/exit interiors/exteriors on their own.
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Greendogo
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Greendogo » 07 Dec 2012, 00:20

Tes96 wrote:I personally don't care for multi-player or even dual player. I like single-player. That's just my opinion. Although the NPC following AI could do with a huge overhaul. I hate how they get stuck and cannot enter/exit interiors/exteriors on their own.
I agree with everything you said.

I actually hate all multiplayer rpg games. RPGs just seem like they should be single-player to me, because you are the central character of the story. The world revolves around your schedule, and you get to determine the occurrence of specific events. It would feel wrong, to me, to give this power up to another player, let alone many other players.

Tarius
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Tarius » 07 Dec 2012, 02:22

Greendogo wrote:
Tes96 wrote:I personally don't care for multi-player or even dual player. I like single-player. That's just my opinion. Although the NPC following AI could do with a huge overhaul. I hate how they get stuck and cannot enter/exit interiors/exteriors on their own.
I agree with everything you said.

I actually hate all multiplayer rpg games. RPGs just seem like they should be single-player to me, because you are the central character of the story. The world revolves around your schedule, and you get to determine the occurrence of specific events. It would feel wrong, to me, to give this power up to another player, let alone many other players.
Thats why the idea of just having the other people as sidekicks is kick ass.
I am a bigger fan of tons of control rather than taking the "user-friendly" approach.
-Okulo

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Tes96
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Tes96 » 07 Dec 2012, 05:55

Tarius wrote:
Greendogo wrote:
Tes96 wrote:I personally don't care for multi-player or even dual player. I like single-player. That's just my opinion. Although the NPC following AI could do with a huge overhaul. I hate how they get stuck and cannot enter/exit interiors/exteriors on their own.
I agree with everything you said.

I actually hate all multiplayer rpg games. RPGs just seem like they should be single-player to me, because you are the central character of the story. The world revolves around your schedule, and you get to determine the occurrence of specific events. It would feel wrong, to me, to give this power up to another player, let alone many other players.
Thats why the idea of just having the other people as sidekicks is kick ass.
If multiplayer could be done efficiently, then I would like to have it in (optionally) for the sole purpose of pleasing other people. I would not use it but it would make me happy to know that many other players would be happy with what they got, as there are things I want in the game that probably many other people do not want. As long as it could be an option I would be fine.
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Chris
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Chris » 07 Dec 2012, 06:53

Greendogo wrote:RPGs just seem like they should be single-player to me, because you are the central character of the story. The world revolves around your schedule, and you get to determine the occurrence of specific events.
I disagree with this. One of the biggest things that bug me about TES is how everything so obviously revolves around you. Someone was kidnapped and being held for ransom? It's okay, they'll still be hanging out in that same cave years from now when you finally decides to go take care of it. Been asked to do something important by a high-ranking official? It's cool, just do it whenever you feel like it. There's never any consequence to inaction, or being too slow.

Part of having a living world is having a world that acts with or without you. If you're asked to do something, nothing kills immersion faster than realizing that the quest will be in the same exact state regardless of how long you take to do it, and that things only change because you make them. I want to feel like I'm part of the world, but I can't get to that level when I realize nothing will happen without "my approval".

That's part of why I like the later games like I do, because Radiant AI allows NPCs to act with or without you being nearby, based on their person stats. If a quest is started that sends a group of people to a cave of vampires, they'll go fight those vampires whether or not you go there. If you hurry up, maybe you can get there ahead of them and steal their glory. Or if you take your time, they'll get there first and take out some or all of the vampires before you ever set foot in the cave. Or maybe you'll get there first, but as you're sneaking through they'll charge in swords swinging.

Sadly, there's few quests that take advantage of this potential, but the idea is there and the general concept adds that much more to the experience. Even something as simple as a shop closing at night, or people eating and sleeping at specific times, or traveling between cities. You can stand around and watch them go through their routines step-by-step, or you can be off traveling and encounter them at the appropriate places at the appropriate times (sometimes even when they're on route to their next destination) without your intervention.

Daggerfall's holidays were also a nice touch. They were set for specific regions on specific days, and if you weren't in that region on that day, oh well, you miss it and will have to wait until next year. But if you are in the right place at the right time, you get a nice surprise. Much better than only having a holiday because you complete a quest that triggers it.


I also disagree that RPGs should be single-player. Emergent storytelling is much easier to do when you have multiple people, where players work off each others' actions. Player A does something that causes Player B to do something in response, which influences Player C, who affects Player A, etc. It's much more dynamic when multiple people are involved.

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Greendogo
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Greendogo » 07 Dec 2012, 12:19

While I dislike a lot of multiplayer rpg games, I suppose the reason is that usually these are MMOs which are alive all the time. You are at a disadvantage when you are asleep, when at work, or school. But That's fine, a lot of people still find it to be an attractive medium of play.

Anyway, you're right, Radiant AI makes the later games much much better. More alive, and many times more realistic. Schedules, sleeping. Sure those are important. But Skyrim built on top of Oblivion's accomplishments in a lot of great ways too. So I would really like it if something like Radiant AI capabilities was a focus of post-1.0 versions of OpenMW.

I consider more advanced AI, scheduling, physics and combat to be much more important that graphical improvements (which are still important). But they are all more important that multiplayer for me. I'd be interested to see an implementation of multiplayer though. Not in the mainline branch of course, since it would just be feature creep. But a really good OpenMW engine mod would be multiplayer, and obviously that's going to be a popular interest.

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Tes96
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Tes96 » 07 Dec 2012, 18:54

Chris wrote:
Greendogo wrote:RPGs just seem like they should be single-player to me, because you are the central character of the story. The world revolves around your schedule, and you get to determine the occurrence of specific events.
I disagree with this. One of the biggest things that bug me about TES is how everything so obviously revolves around you. Someone was kidnapped and being held for ransom? It's okay, they'll still be hanging out in that same cave years from now when you finally decides to go take care of it. Been asked to do something important by a high-ranking official? It's cool, just do it whenever you feel like it. There's never any consequence to inaction, or being too slow.

Part of having a living world is having a world that acts with or without you. If you're asked to do something, nothing kills immersion faster than realizing that the quest will be in the same exact state regardless of how long you take to do it, and that things only change because you make them. I want to feel like I'm part of the world, but I can't get to that level when I realize nothing will happen without "my approval".

That's part of why I like the later games like I do, because Radiant AI allows NPCs to act with or without you being nearby, based on their person stats. If a quest is started that sends a group of people to a cave of vampires, they'll go fight those vampires whether or not you go there. If you hurry up, maybe you can get there ahead of them and steal their glory. Or if you take your time, they'll get there first and take out some or all of the vampires before you ever set foot in the cave. Or maybe you'll get there first, but as you're sneaking through they'll charge in swords swinging.

Sadly, there's few quests that take advantage of this potential, but the idea is there and the general concept adds that much more to the experience. Even something as simple as a shop closing at night, or people eating and sleeping at specific times, or traveling between cities. You can stand around and watch them go through their routines step-by-step, or you can be off traveling and encounter them at the appropriate places at the appropriate times (sometimes even when they're on route to their next destination) without your intervention.

Daggerfall's holidays were also a nice touch. They were set for specific regions on specific days, and if you weren't in that region on that day, oh well, you miss it and will have to wait until next year. But if you are in the right place at the right time, you get a nice surprise. Much better than only having a holiday because you complete a quest that triggers it.


I also disagree that RPGs should be single-player. Emergent storytelling is much easier to do when you have multiple people, where players work off each others' actions. Player A does something that causes Player B to do something in response, which influences Player C, who affects Player A, etc. It's much more dynamic when multiple people are involved.
Those are all good points with which I concur. Unfortunately, as of now the only AI immersive mods we have are Living Cities of Vvardenfell which simply teleports actors. Would be nice to have them walk to/from their destinations. But the scripting for TESIII right now is so archaic. I'm sure OpenMW will open a whole new set of doors for the modding community. I'm willing to bet that 10 years after OpenMW is completed, most of the mods used for vanilla Morrowind won't be used, and most mods will be for OpenMW. That'll probably be in the 2020s though.
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Chris
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Re: 2 Ideas, both quite huge tasks

Post by Chris » 07 Dec 2012, 19:17

Greendogo wrote:While I dislike a lot of multiplayer rpg games, I suppose the reason is that usually these are MMOs which are alive all the time. You are at a disadvantage when you are asleep, when at work, or school. But That's fine, a lot of people still find it to be an attractive medium of play.
MMOs I feel are a bit too multiplayer. They invariably try to make the player feel unique and special, which doesn't quite work when you have millions of other players doing the same things. They sacrifice a lot in world persistence to make sure many random people can do "important" quests.

I've said it before but I think Daggerfall is the best TES game design that can be translated to an MMO. Huge world, tons of large dungeons, random repeatable quests up the yin-yang, and you're not anyone special. If you want an MMO with a believable living world, you can't try to make millions of individual "precious little snowflakes" that are all identical.

But I digress.

Proper multiplayer, IMO, is just you with a handful of friends. You know them, they know you, and you can all agree to a set of "ground rules" for play. But this is academic, as Morrowind simply isn't designed for proper multiplayer. Maybe the Example Suite can be built with multiplayer in mind, but the engine still needs to be designed for it to work first.
I consider more advanced AI, scheduling, physics and combat to be much more important that graphical improvements (which are still important). But they are all more important that multiplayer for me.
I agree. The most important graphical enhancement, IMO, is distant land. I just hate that wall of fog that never goes away. Improved AI (people reacting individually to what they see, based on their individual stats), proper schedules, etc, are very high on my wishlist. That, and a UI overhaul (I very much dislike the icon inventory and magic window; it's also very wasteful to cram everything onto one screen when you only need one or two of the windows).

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