Post 1.0 Plans

Anything related to PR, release planning and any other non-technical idea how to move the project forward should be discussed here.
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Zini
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by Zini » 28 Jun 2018, 09:51

I assume that contents which are already configurable in the vanilla CS are implied and don't need to be added to the doc? (eg governing magic school, graphics and sounds are implied optional arguments for "Magic Effect")
The document describes enhancements. No need to mention anything that is already there.
Instances & Objects: are content files able to apply partial edits to the records and subrecords of an object ("class")? If I understand correctly "Record Variables" could add new subrecords, but how about the ability for a content file to apply or apend edits to existing subrecords without modifying the whole record or subrecord? Example: I create a new faction object "Gente Nueva" and want to add faction reactions to the faction object "Thieves Guild" so that "Thieves Guild" will hate members of "Gente Nueva": in vanilla this cannot be done without modifying the whole "Thieves Guild" faction object. The same issue applies if I want to change a single aspect of a NPC, like giving it a new face: in vanilla this can only be done by by editing the entire NPC and overwriting changes to other subrecords of the NPC from any other content files, even if they would be compatible changes.
Not planned for stage1. This would require a major overhaul, exactly the kind of thing we try to avoid with stage1.
Instances & Objects: where does the ability to distinguish instances created in the game come from (vanilla: 8 digits added)
Not doing the 8 digit thing. We can look at the RefID.
Script Instructions UseSkill (or whatever ends up fulfilling this functionality): does "Progresses the skill id by a value of v" imply that progress counts towards level ups? (as noted later, "Note that regular script instructions that change skill level do not count towards level ups.") Assuming it does, similar functionality that allows you to change skills *without* counting towards level ups would still be useful to have, especially for temporary stat manipulation on companion NPCs if they otherwise get to level up themselves.
Yes, UseSkill is meant for level up progress. The ability to modify skills temporarily via magic effects exists even in vanilla.
General de-hardcoding: what about original morrowind's hardcoded objects (gold, soul gems)?
Don't have any plans for them yet. Maybe a follow-up in stage2. Or even a late addition to stage1 if people really want to and come up with a feasible design.
If you use an acronym, can you define it? I don't know what a GMST is.
Game Setting. A record type in the ESM/P file format.
Does this mean that we will be able to create more armour types of our own design? ExtraLight, SuperHeavy, etc.
That is one possible application.
Vanilla never had this, correct? As far as I could tell, as a player, it just seemed to play non-combat music in sequence.
Correct.
I'd love to see two things:

* Depth of field

* Shadows
Shadows are still on the to-do list for 1.0. As for other graphical enhancements (as mentioned above): The section will be filled in soon. AnyOldName3 has offered to help out with it (I don't know yet what he has planned).

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Ravenwing
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by Ravenwing » 29 Jun 2018, 07:26

Finally got a chance to read through most of this! I cannot wait for The Great (or Grand as it's apparently officially called now) Dehardcoding!

It sounds like there are several things that will have to be taken care of by modders because there's no automated way of changing things such as weather events and fast travel locations. This reinforces an idea I had on another thread that we should probably try to release and "unofficially" recommend an unofficially official mod that takes care of some of these things. Obviously the game should run fine regardless, but I imagine it would be good to have a well put together mod that shows how content creators should be extending existing systems and do some of the initial work for them. Plus, if everyone is basically expected to have this, like the MPP, it would hopefully help with mod compatibility.
rocky1138 wrote:
28 Jun 2018, 05:29
I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think this is the right approach. As much as I want OpenMW-CS to be feature-complete, forcing everyone to wait could stall development and even force a hostile fork. With FOSS stuff, I feel like getting as many people involved as quickly as possible is imperative. The features will grow with more people, not less.
It sounds like, since the main intended draw for post-1.0 will be opening up the engine, and none of those features matter without CS access to them, both need to be released at the same time.

@Zini, I know the graphics section still needs to be filled out, but I do think a significant portion of the population will really only be interested in OpenMW if it reaches graphical parity with MGE. I know that's not something a lot of people here on the forums are as actively interested in, but a lot of people on reddit basically say that until we have shadows, shaders, and distant statics, they're not interested. Obviously we've made some good progress when it comes to these, but wanted to put in my two cents for that section.

There is one thing that I think might be good to consider adding to the plan, especially since it doesn't sound like opening up the GUI to editing may ever happen fully: Controller UI. With the original Xbox release and the recent rerelease on Xbox One, a bunch of people are probably used to playing with a controller. The UI is pretty terrible for this play style as it stands, and I imagine it would be better to implement it now before the GUI becomes more accessible to content creators.

I also had a few thoughts about things further down the timeline. You mention OpenMW 2.0 and stage 1 and 2 multiple times throughout the plan. I know this is putting the cart waaaay before the horse, but do you have an idea for what 2.0 should allow people to do? Having a clear goal for 1.0 was really helpful both for answering questions and guiding development, so by the time 1.0 is released I think we should have a good answer for this figured out and added to the FAQs. Personally, I think a great goal for 2.0 would be to have feature parity with Vanilla+MGE+MCP+MWSE. I know some parts of that would be moving targets, but it would be easy for someone with little knowledge of the project to grasp.

On a somewhat related note, I think it would be very beneficial for the stages to be at least mostly planned 1 or 2 stages ahead of time. This is less for general clarity and more for content creators. If I'm a content creator and I really want to make X mod that requires Y feature, I'd want to know if Y feature is planned to be worked on in the next stage or two. That way, I can postpone working on that part of my mod until that feature is available, or go ahead and try to devise a workaround. Obviously with this kind of project there wouldn't be any concrete deadlines, but it's still nice to know if a desired feature is even on the devs radar as needing to be addressed.
rocky1138 wrote:
28 Jun 2018, 05:29
If OpenMW-CS has some really long-living incomplete features, consider a bounty. The money can come from crowdsourcing. I know I wouldn't mind throwing a few dollars here or there to see it get finished.
This sounds tricky to hash out properly, but if we could I would certainly chip in for a few things. Do we have an official position on bounties? Most recent thread I know of that talked about them in detail is this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3802&hilit=bounty but didn't seem like there was a final decision.

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psi29a
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by psi29a » 29 Jun 2018, 08:22

Ravenwing wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 07:26
You mention OpenMW 2.0 and stage 1 and 2 multiple times throughout the plan. I know this is putting the cart waaaay before the horse, but do you have an idea for what 2.0 should allow people to do? Having a clear goal for 1.0 was really helpful both for answering questions and guiding development, so by the time 1.0 is released I think we should have a good answer for this figured out and added to the FAQs. Personally, I think a great goal for 2.0 would be to have feature parity with Vanilla+MGE+MCP+MWSE. I know some parts of that would be moving targets, but it would be easy for someone with little knowledge of the project to grasp.
TES3MP == OpenMW 2.0, bring in _that_ long running fork is a (the?) goal of 2.0

David and Zini are on the same page, so that is the future.

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lysol
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by lysol » 29 Jun 2018, 11:26

Ravenwing wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 07:26
@Zini, I know the graphics section still needs to be filled out, but I do think a significant portion of the population will really only be interested in OpenMW if it reaches graphical parity with MGE. I know that's not something a lot of people here on the forums are as actively interested in, but a lot of people on reddit basically say that until we have shadows, shaders, and distant statics, they're not interested. Obviously we've made some good progress when it comes to these, but wanted to put in my two cents for that section.
I wouldn't say that people aren't actively interested in this. I believe the hottest PR on OpenMW's GitHub is AnyOldName3's shadow branch. The shadows are looking great already, and it's just the details left to do. This is very time consuming of course.

Also, we already have shaders. People just need to start making some cool stuff with it. There has been work with it (what was that guy's username again?) but that thread kind of died.

So bascially the only thing missing of the stuff you mentioned is distant statics, but even there I believe akortunov has made some successful experiments already.

The only real reason we don't have super awesome graphics yet is that no one has done it yet. I don't think anyone opposes the development of distant statics.
Normal mapped texture replacers, exclusive for OpenMW:
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psi29a
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by psi29a » 29 Jun 2018, 11:40

Yeah... there seems to be a misconception that OpenMW doesn't support PBR. If someone wants to make PBR shaders and content, they are free to do so as OpenMW (via OSG) supports that. Just that Morrowind's assets weren't made with these in mind so they might look weird; not OpenMW's fault. ;)

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Zini
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by Zini » 29 Jun 2018, 11:49

On a somewhat related note, I think it would be very beneficial for the stages to be at least mostly planned 1 or 2 stages ahead of time.
That's not feasible at this point. I have put into the document everything I could think of and hopefully we will get a few additions during this discussion. For getting started on stage 2 we will have to see how stage 1 turns out first. Too many unknowns to make plans yet.
It sounds like there are several things that will have to be taken care of by modders because there's no automated way of changing things such as weather events and fast travel locations. This reinforces an idea I had on another thread that we should probably try to release and "unofficially" recommend an unofficially official mod that takes care of some of these things. Obviously the game should run fine regardless, but I imagine it would be good to have a well put together mod that shows how content creators should be extending existing systems and do some of the initial work for them. Plus, if everyone is basically expected to have this, like the MPP, it would hopefully help with mod compatibility.
We can not host such an addon ourself, because copyright reasons. However if the community wants to make something like this and host it elsewhere, we can certainly recommend it.

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Ravenwing
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by Ravenwing » 30 Jun 2018, 05:40

psi29a wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 08:22
TES3MP == OpenMW 2.0, bring in _that_ long running fork is a (the?) goal of 2.0

David and Zini are on the same page, so that is the future.
And what a glorious future it shall be! Hooray!
lysol wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 11:26
I wouldn't say that people aren't actively interested in this.
Yes, but compared to the general gaming population, people here in the forums are much less "shiny graphics" driven than interesting gameplay driven, which is certainly a good thing and why the stage 1 plan is so exciting! I just wanted to put in my thoughts for when that section gets written. I didn't see distant statics as one of the goals already there and I know that's where we have the most work left of the three.
lysol wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 11:26
Also, we already have shaders. People just need to start making some cool stuff with it. There has been work with it (what was that guy's username again?) but that thread kind of died.
Indeed! But that's something that needs to be made accessible within OpenMW-CS for people to start doing so. That thread was exciting, but I believe you need a development environment to adjust the shaders? Again, wasn't critiquing, just very interested in those things!
Zini wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 11:49
That's not feasible at this point. I have put into the document everything I could think of and hopefully we will get a few additions during this discussion. For getting started on stage 2 we will have to see how stage 1 turns out first. Too many unknowns to make plans yet.
Of course! I meant to add I wasn't expecting that at this point, especially since you just spent a ton of time putting this doc together. Just something I foresee as being helpful to content creators in the future in general.
Zini wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 11:49
We can not host such an addon ourself, because copyright reasons. However if the community wants to make something like this and host it elsewhere, we can certainly recommend it.
That was exactly what I was thinking. If one or two of us forum members worked on it and released it while working closely with the devs and had a very limited scope, I think it would be very helpful to a lot of people. It would be a good project for those of us who are less "programatically" inclined.

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AnyOldName3
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by AnyOldName3 » 30 Jun 2018, 11:27

When they work, my exterior shadows are already at least as good as MGEXE's, and the interior ones aren't necessarily better or worse, just different (as theirs jump about between light sources, which is jarring, but mine always come from the global fake light source, so don't jump around, but then ignore the real light sources).

Distant statics have already had some discussion. They've been a when-they're-done feature rather than a post-1.0 feature for a while, but no one's done them. Once they're finished, they're likely to be better than MGEXE's as I think theirs require precomputing but ours will be on-the-fly.

Post-processing shaders will happen. We've experimented with a system that lets us have one post-processing shader, but for whatever reason, it didn't support having more than one. This is just a case of designing and implementing the system.

That'll give us parity with MGEXE.
AnyOldName3, Master of Shadows

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kuyondo
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by kuyondo » 01 Jul 2018, 07:23

Im not a pro in scripting or programming, but after reading the post 1.0 plans by zini, i got really amazed and excited. to have new and powerful scripting features to create mods that are more exciting is just fantastic. no doubt people will switch over to OpenMw when this happens. to have more function and the ability to create variables is fundamental for a better modding experience hence a better gaming experience.

Reminds me a lot when I used to create warcraft3 maps and create all sorts of scripts and triggers to satisfy myself. Cant wait to create some funny moments with this new and powerful features that will be implemented :lol:

Clement
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Re: Post 1.0 Plans

Post by Clement » 03 Jul 2018, 11:04

AnyOldName3 wrote:
30 Jun 2018, 11:27
When they work, my exterior shadows are already at least as good as MGEXE's, and the interior ones aren't necessarily better or worse, just different (as theirs jump about between light sources, which is jarring, but mine always come from the global fake light source, so don't jump around, but then ignore the real light sources).
There are interior shadows in MGE XE? Is this a in-dev feature, or did I miss this? The only settings related to interior shadows I can find is the vanilla "High Detail Shadows" (actor only and catastrophic performances).

One big MGE XE feature missing in your list is grass. I guess the distant static hack from MGE XE is not the way it will be done. Is there any design draft about how modders will be able to add grass to their world? I could not find it in Zini's document (not stage 1?).

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