For the record, I think the OpenMW community is also generally pleasant - most of the time.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Not going to say you don't have a bit of a point, but I think all sides of this equation have been intellectually dishonest. Mod authors are tired of being asked if their work is compatible with an engine that is consistently increasing in popularity? Well everyone here is tired of being asked the same questions over and over again too. It is shocking how often people still ask, both here and on other platforms, if MWSE is compatible with OpenMW. Not even mods that use MWSE, but the actual MWSE itself! A quick search of the Nexus forums shows that the majority of OpenMW related threads involve people who a) couldn't be bothered to make an account here to ask, b) did but are impatient for an answer (from a very small, volunteer dev group), or c) could have answered their own question by 10 min of reading the FAQ and some of our docs.NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 I think a lot of the negativity comes from some different experiences and comments on Reddit/Nexus. The first thing any new mod gets asked on those platforms is "Is this Rebirth compatible?" followed by "Is this OpenMW compatible?" I think this creates some animosity towards them, even though they're both fine projects.
This is also intellectually dishonest. It is accurate only so far as, it is OpenMW's responsibility to be compatible with mods that are compatible with vanilla MW. And even that can't be totally claimed, because we haven't made it to 1.0. So many mods use 3rd party tools, it would be ridiculously out of scope, certainly at this point, to try to support them all. And claiming that OpenMW is "unstable and unreliable" is pretty ridiculous, given that the main thing going for OpenMW at this point is that it's more stable and reliable than vanilla. I understand you've been having problems with rendering, but we've also been trying to fix it, correct? As to what MW and OpenMW modders do with and feel about their mods, they're volunteers too. If they don't want to put in work making their mod compatible with the other engine, it might suck for some users, but as long as they don't restrict others from increasing compatibility, I don't see a problem. (Sorry, I've always been a Cathedralist)NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 In the case of OpenMW, it should be that project's job to be compatible with Morrowind mods, not the job of Morrowind mods to be compatible with it. Many modders finish them, try them out on the other engine, and they just don't work. This makes people working on vanilla MW hate how unstable and unreliable OpenMW is, while it makes OpenMW modders shrug and just not support the vanilla engine. During this year's modathon more than a few modders ranted at OpenMW and why it wasn't working with their mods.
I think this is an understandable feeling to have, but it still comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what kind of project this is. And part of this delay was because of the switch to OSG, something hard for the average user to grasp the gravity of. Part of this is certainly our own fault, but even a slight amount of hyping gets blown way out of proportion by people not even connected to the dev team. I think we've also been trying to address this over the last couple of years at least. Over time, people have become so used to the bullshit they have to put up with for the original engine, they view doing some of the same things for OpenMW as much worse. Expectations for the engine have also been a moving target. Just because we've said 1.0 means feature parity with vanilla only doesn't mean users' and modders' expectations haven't risen beyond that. (Thanks in no small part to your own significant advances with MWSE, lol)NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 Another factor is time. I think OpenMW is more than a decade old? The longer development stretches on without any tangible, beneficial deliveries to modders, the more modders will write it off. Plus for the past few years devs have lied and said "It's almost ready! Probably releasing this year!" then not met those statements. It's cool to tell someone you'll take them to the zoo this year. It's not cool to tell them you'll take them to the zoo this year, for the past 5 years, but never actually do so. At the end of the day, it just doesn't live up to its own hype, which sparks disappointment/resentment and makes people think OpenMW is vaporware.
Here we are in complete agreement. I think since we're actually getting much closer to 1.0, we're finally able to start branching out into some of the things we've been neglecting while rebuilding the actual engine has been taking precedence. We've also learned from our past mistakes, but putting systems in place to prevent them is slow for a volunteer project of this scale. I hope that you start to see some results from this even if you don't agree with all of our scope, and that you start to lay off a little from some of the more public criticism. I for one am quite excited that you're willing to work more with us.NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 I think OpenMW is well on track for fixing some of these issues, by starting to work more closely with modders. Make them happy, and they'll make you happy. More measured expectations might also help. Instead of pulling an E3 Oblivion Todd and saying that everything "Just works!" be honest with the limitations and progress.
To be precise: For 100 % mod compatibility, OpenMW must run every mod which does not rely on third-party software and contains no errors (especially scripting). The vanilla engine is very forgiving when it comes to error-checking - which is a developer's nightmare and nothing we'd want to reproduce in OpenMW. The OpenMW team has already put countless hours in tracking down related issues and has come up with various work-arounds and tweaks to achieve compatibility. A fact that is often forgotten in modding-related discussions.NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 In the case of OpenMW, it should be that project's job to be compatible with Morrowind mods, not the job of Morrowind mods to be compatible with it. Many modders finish them, try them out on the other engine, and they just don't work.
Please choose your words more cautiously, NullCascade, because claiming that developers have lied about the project's status is a lie by itself. Yes, our predictions were too optimistic and we failed to achieve our goals in time, but none of us has ever tried to deceive the community. That being said, we have become more realistic and try to avoid overhyping OpenMW. (Which - what subtle irony - lead to people stating that OpenMW is dead.)NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 [...] Plus for the past few years devs have lied and said "It's almost ready! Probably releasing this year!" then not met those statements. It's cool to tell someone you'll take them to the zoo this year. It's not cool to tell them you'll take them to the zoo this year, for the past 5 years, but never actually do so. [...]
Exactly, I found a handful of mods, most of which are popular to have bad scripting. When I checked the script, it is indeed a poorly written and have bad syntax. Vanilla engine is really forgiving for those errors. For example, this mod-http://mw.modhistory.com/download-11-13440.
I find this statement quite ignorant.NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 In the case of OpenMW, it should be that project's job to be compatible with Morrowind mods, not the job of Morrowind mods to be compatible with it. Many modders finish them, try them out on the other engine, and they just don't work. This makes people working on vanilla MW hate how unstable and unreliable OpenMW is, while it makes OpenMW modders shrug and just not support the vanilla engine.
There are some minor cases where OpenMW doesnt replicate vanilla Morrowind mechanics, but I believe so with good reasons. OpenMW can replicate such behaviors but not with side effects, and we dont want such stuff to hinder and detriment the other more important goals of OpenMW. Im sure theres a workaround, if there are mods that need to be reviewed for OpenMW, do let me know.NullCascade wrote: ↑24 Jul 2018, 22:46 During this year's modathon more than a few modders ranted at OpenMW and why it wasn't working with their mods.
This is a great time to learn about Semantic Versioning! https://semver.org/ As you said, this is an open source project, so we don't use the "traditional" versioning schemes used by proprietary projects.glorsh66 wrote: ↑27 Jul 2018, 15:01 1) It's an alpha version of the game. And the zero at the beginning of the version number doesn't add much assurance.
2) The version of the game has not been updated for a year or so (I am not talking about the nightly build which I ended up using)
3) It's an open source project [..]