Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

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ezze
Posts: 428
Joined: 21 Nov 2013, 13:20

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by ezze » 19 Mar 2015, 10:41

BlueFootedBooby wrote:[...] it's rather arrogant to casually imply laziness on the devs' part.
If you worked more than 5 minutes making Morrowind mods or you read the bizarre rules in uesp, you know it is not arrogance. It is simply accepting facts. I am not sorry Bethesda, hire programmers.

grot
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Joined: 04 Mar 2015, 16:53

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by grot » 25 Mar 2015, 19:27

Hiya,

I got sick for a couple weeks which set me behind, but I took this data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

That data is rather variable - although the times are sort of 'guestimates' since I was using an hourly in-game clock mod (the dwemer clock, I think). I would upload the video, but it would take a very long time, so I'm going to wait until somebody *really* wants to see it or I get bored, whichever happens first.

There definitely seems to be variability a bit of randomness. This is taken over the course of a single moon cycle - my fear is that there are slight variations between every moon cycle. Although I did make a few glances at cycles 6 months later, and they appeared to be similar.

If I had a guess, I would guess that they created sort of system that changes the rising and setting point of the moons each night, and then shoved some randomly generated variables into it to mix it up a bit. I think this is best illustrated by the 'skip day' which I highlighted in red, and the fact that the 'waning gibbous' phases are only 2 days long, making them shorter the shortest phase, which seems hackish, to me.

imo, 3 options:
1) replicate a simple system like theirs
2) use real-ish orbits
3) reverse engineer their exact orbits

I think the best option is to mix #1 and #2. I think #3 would be a lot of work for little gain. My goals will be:
1) use realistic models, but avoid anything overly complicated
2) apply some real-ish orbit properties - for curved paths, and possibly aligning the reflections with regards to the sun*
3) make sure the moons are visible during the daytime during about the same time as they already are
4) get the moons to rise on the horizon*. I would love to see a scene like this in openmw:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... lusion.jpg
5) Ensure there is no conflict with moon-events - in fact this might be why the moon doesn't rise on the horizon, so the player won't be caught off guard**

*I'm a bit worried the way the sky is rendered might make this difficult or processing intensive - but I don't think it will? I assume this data is sent on every render update anyways, so I'm assuming it will add roughly 0 overhead. Am I wrong here?

**Does anyone have input on this point?

Comments? Concerns? If not, I'll program to these goals

LadyFreyja
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Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 16:48

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by LadyFreyja » 27 Mar 2015, 17:10

Hello,

As a lore nerd, I have to respond to this topic.


I don't understand the issue here. The cosmos of the Elder Scrolls has nothing in common with our own.

Nirn is the center of the universe, there is at least 3 or 4 moons who orbits around Nirn... yes, 3 or 4, even if we see only 2 in game.
The third moon is the "Dead Moon", which appears in the sky only during the apotheosis of a new Mane (spiritual leader of the Khajiit).
The fourth is "The Revenant", which appears only at midnight one time the month. But we're not sure if the Revenant orbits Nirn or Arkay.

BTW the sun isn't a giant fireball, but only a "hole" in Oblivion. Oblivion is the sky. The stars can appears or disappears. The constellations can do it too, and they can change their size.


Trying to follow any "astronomical rule" in the ES universe is totally irrelevant. Any star, planet, moon, etc. are gods. And gods do what they want, ignoring any logic here.
Nirn is a goddess too.


I dunno what isn't "astronomically correct" in the moons, if it's about the waning and waxing of the moons: the sun has nothing in common with our sun, so no point to try to follow the sun. And if it's about the fact we can see the stars through the moons, as Chris says, there is explanations about it in the lore.

tmillc
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Joined: 06 Apr 2015, 09:07

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by tmillc » 08 Apr 2015, 19:09

grot wrote: Comments? Concerns? If not, I'll program to these goals
I think this sounds very exciting. I would want to read about your method and see it in action. :D

ezze
Posts: 428
Joined: 21 Nov 2013, 13:20

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by ezze » 09 Apr 2015, 04:02

grot wrote:Comments? Concerns? If not, I'll program to these goals
I do not know the code enough to have an informed idea about the overhead, but as lucky guess I can hardly image it can be a problem. My suggestion, just don't overdo it. As you said "use realistic models, but avoid anything overly complicated."

About point (5) I actually think it is a feature. You need the moon? Look for it :D

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nnayo
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Location: Cannes, France

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by nnayo » 11 Apr 2015, 08:33

Comments? Concerns? If not, I'll program to these goals
please do it!
moon rising on the horizon will be wonderful :o

Samphire
Posts: 1
Joined: 25 Aug 2015, 17:20

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by Samphire » 25 Aug 2015, 17:27

I registered an account just to say this:

Please don't try to "fix" things that aren't definitely bugs.
Don't try to "fix" the moons. That's just as out-of-line as "fixing" the combat system to not use dice rolls.

OpenMW isn't about re-designing Morrowind, it's about bringing Morrowind as-it-was to a new engine.

Replicating the game should be top priority, not changing artistic decisions, even if you don't like them.
If you want to change the way the moons work, make a Mod. But vanilla OpenMW should try to get as close to original Morrowind as possible.

DocClox
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Joined: 10 May 2015, 13:26

Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by DocClox » 26 Aug 2015, 08:36

My suggestion would be to make their behaviour, in order of preference
  • Morrowind Identical
  • Lore Conforming
  • Astronomically viable
  • Whatever is left that's is easy to do.
Which is to say the best thing is always to follow Morrowind. Especially so when it may not be clear what is Lore, what is a bug and what is intended behavior.

Personally, I'm in the plane(t) camp. The game lore makes it clear that the moons and planets are heavenly bodies and separate planes of existence both. I'm not sure how that would work if you tried to land on one but the duality is clear and intentional. I'm just not sure if it tells us anything concrete about their orbital mechanics.

One thing might be to ask the question somewhere like /r/teslore, I suppose.

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Okulo
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Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by Okulo » 26 Aug 2015, 22:02

Samphire wrote:Don't try to "fix" the moons. That's just as out-of-line as "fixing" the combat system to not use dice rolls.
The paths of the moons aren't an integral part of gameplay, so I really doubt that it's just as out-of-line.

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augustt
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Re: Moons - replicate Morrowind or lore friendly?

Post by augustt » 28 Aug 2015, 00:50

What we think of astronomically correct shouldn't be a factor when we're talking about the world of TES. That's part of the charm. Reflexively demanding that the celestial bodies behave in a way consistent with the universe we live in is frankly boring and missing the point.

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