Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

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SquireNed
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Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by SquireNed » 29 Aug 2014, 14:24

Improved models with custom-made textures (improve the geometry, change the unwrap)

*snip*

Con:
  • New models need new textures in order to be usable
  • There will probably be a need for more textures (new geometry demands additional 2d art)
  • Coordination between modelers and texture artists, depency of models and textures
  • Organization, coordination and progress of the project will require more work
  • We could more easily drift off from vanilla Morrowind's look & feel
  • No compatibility with already-existing texture replacers
  • We might quickly accumulate a huge amount of textures, many of them huge compared to the originals = performance hit
  • ...
New objects do need new textures in order to be usable, but that's not necessarily a bad thing inherently; I'm not participating in MOAR in part because I just don't have the time, but I think new textures are critical; we should be looking at stuff like diffuse, specular, and normal mapping now if I recall correctly, which means that the vanilla textures ain't gonna cut it anymore. Add in the fact that trying to keep the old textures is borderline impossible from a modeling/UV perspective, and I'd say that it'll actually be less work to start anew than try to maintain 1:1 compatibility.

More textures and new textures are basically the same; you probably won't need numerically more textures, though you may need to expand the texture space (again, not a huge problem).

You will need modelers and texture artists, but fortunately I don't think that that's particularly more difficult than the current coordination between modelers. And yes, it will probably take a little longer to release, but it'll look much better when it does.

See above on the more work on organization (though hopefully the software manages most of that).

I recognize that drifting from vanilla's look and feel is bad, but you kinda want to in some ways anyway, namely making things more high fidelity. I wouldn't complain too much.

If people wanted other texture replacers, they could use them with vanilla models. I don't know that there are any texture replacer/third-party models that don't need to be matched up anyway. I believe that we've had the texture replacer debate here, and the general consensus was that any thing we particularly liked as a whole community never saw a complete release.

I wouldn't worry about performance issues from replacing textures and such; sure it is a performance hit but a lot of our performance issues right now come from OGRE; by the time they get dealt with in OGRE the optimization will outweigh the resulting doubling or tripling of texture resolution. Modern systems should be able to deal with it as a non-issue. Given how Morrowind currently treats rigs, it looks to me like geometry is more important than textures right now anyway, but I'm not a master at such diagnoses.

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Okulo
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 16:11

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by Okulo » 29 Aug 2014, 19:33

Improved models with vanilla-texture compatibility (improve the geometry, fix bugs in the unwraps)

Pro:
  • The modeler's and texture artist's objective is clear and easy = quick results
The objectives are clear in both cases. In fact, the modeler's objective is the same. The texture artist will just have a more difficult time if it is tied to the old unwraps, so how is this a pro?.
The project's progress is easy to track ("1337 / 4718 models done, 312 / 518 textures done")
We can be sure about the amount of textures there will be = ensured performance
Adding normal and/or spec maps can further improve the looks
You can do the same thing if you redo the unwraps.
Option to use original textures with very-close-to-original models ensures improved vanilla experience
You're gonna redo both the models and the textures anyway.

Some of the other pros come down to: "We can use other people's assets."

Might I also add that since OpenMW is nearing completion and Skywind probably coming sometime in this decade, people are looking for a fresh look for Morrowind? There are tons of texture replacers out there anyway. Making assets from scratch, including the unwraps, would at least fill a niche.

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bahamut
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Joined: 16 Apr 2014, 11:46

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by bahamut » 30 Aug 2014, 09:18

Guys/gals really just ditch old UV cordinates, textures need to fit the geometry not the other way

MacKom
Posts: 43
Joined: 26 Mar 2013, 13:00

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by MacKom » 30 Aug 2014, 12:35

bahamut wrote:Guys/gals really just ditch old UV cordinates, textures need to fit the geometry not the other way
Preach it brother!

SquireNed
Posts: 398
Joined: 21 Dec 2013, 22:18

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by SquireNed » 30 Aug 2014, 20:03

Plus, with the amount of time you save not trying to get your UV unwraps to look a certain way, you can just go and make the new textures.

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domsson
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Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by domsson » 30 Aug 2014, 20:52

Just to clarify, I'm not at all for sticking with the vanilla textures. The project clearly aims to replace all textures. I just thought it would be nice to simply "renew" each texture, so that they could be a replacement for the vanilla textures, instead of creating completely new and incompatible textures on a need-per-model basis. I imagined this to be the easiest way with fewest coordination and thinking involved, while not risking performance. But yeah, now I don't know anything any more. :D

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lysol
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Location: Sweden

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by lysol » 31 Aug 2014, 09:13

SquireNed wrote:Plus, with the amount of time you save not trying to get your UV unwraps to look a certain way, you can just go and make the new textures.
+1

It would be best to have a few dedicated texture artists and not having everyone making a texture for their own model IMO. The latter would make it hard keeping a consistent style.
Normal mapped texture replacers, exclusive for OpenMW:
My Nexus page

Deonsion
Posts: 30
Joined: 13 Aug 2014, 02:33

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by Deonsion » 31 Aug 2014, 13:56

Just going to chime in from what I have gathered. The thing about it is that Morrowind has VERY few textures for all the objects it loads. I am not sure about the (if any) performance hit that will be encountered. Any one know anything more to add in about the performance impact of using more textures to replace the old ones to match our newer models?


Anyways. I've just finished switching out MySQL for another database system, and I have the backup system set up. Trying to get RabidSquirrel's mod set up in the system to make sure everything works for other mod artists to minimize workload a bit. Still have over 5000 to do, though.

SquireNed
Posts: 398
Joined: 21 Dec 2013, 22:18

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by SquireNed » 31 Aug 2014, 19:30

The performance hit from textures is minor; if your card has the memory (and most will), it can load them up with minimal effort. Unless you start adding in a ton of new features, like Skyrim-style grass, your memory hits from textures are largely inconsequential on modern hardware.

Deonsion
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Joined: 13 Aug 2014, 02:33

Re: Asset Update to Ogre3D Discussion Thread

Post by Deonsion » 01 Sep 2014, 02:28

You are right according to Berandas about the texture thing, also. At this point I would say new models with a fresh UV unwrap and then fixing textures would be a better method.

Don't know who here is still interested in helping, but the claims system is go. If you have premade assets, I'm working on a guide on how to submit them and mass assign claims to people. I have a forum up and running on the site, also. All registered members are now set to a "implings" group who only can post there. On that forum is where more of the planning and assignments shall occur. Feel free to message me on here or the #openmw IRC on freenode - I am usually on. If I'm away I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible.

Emails on the server are a bit.. broken. So emails from the site might show up in your spam. Just add it as an exception for now until I can figure it out. I have a few messages out for help on this since I'm new at all of this.

I'll have guides up soon on how this will work, and should have an update for the summary here in the next couple of days.

I've been working on messaging everyone. If I missed you please get a hold of me. :)

Thanks everyone.

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