Openmw and Skywind

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Sslaxx
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by Sslaxx » 14 Jan 2014, 16:37

BrotherBrick wrote:Just so that no one gets too carried away, let OpenMW get to 1.0 first, please. ;)
This.

And people talking about "porting Skywind". Why? What is the point? Port its unique assets to Morrowind as a mod, sure.

Assuming a post-1.0 world with NIF support (or conversion) and all that, then can come the content mods. I'd rather see Morrowind Rebirth (which has already started on its own overhaul of the Vvardenfell landscape) or a similar mod use Skywind's unique assets.
Last edited by Sslaxx on 14 Jan 2014, 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
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lysol
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by lysol » 14 Jan 2014, 18:02

Sslaxx wrote: This.

And people talking about "porting Skywind". Why? What is the point? Port its unique assets to Morrowind as a mod, sure.

Assuming a post-1.0 world with NIF support (or conversion) and all that, then can come the content mods. I'd rather see Morrowind Rebirth (which has already started on its own overhaul of the Vvardenfell landscape) start to use Skywind's unique assets in its project.
Aaand this. Don't know much about Morrowind Rebirth, but if they've made their own remade landscape then yes, much easier if the assets were ported to that mod If anyone wanted a complete modern mod.
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by skullgrid » 14 Jan 2014, 20:57

Chris wrote:
BrotherBrick wrote:Can someone estimate the amount of effort would be required to handle the NIFs from Oblivion or Skyrim?
Quite a bit. There's a bunch more record types, some existing records have different structures (some fields removed or added), and there's added physics data that I don't believe has been fully decoded and is designed for Havok.
As long as there's consistency it can be automated. And what's not supported can be truncated. Unless I'm missing something.

indiedeveloper
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by indiedeveloper » 14 Jan 2014, 21:19

Just like you have "Morrowind Graphics and Sound Overhaul 3" MGSO3, any content can be added and revised to this but its still not part of Morrowind, as any overhaul for OpenMW would be.

They'll be separate things.

Either somebody goes down the track of converting NIFs to the Morrowind format, in which case it might even be "Morrowind Graphics and Sound Overhaul 4"!? This would not be insignificant given that animations would need to be ported armours and clothing would need to be fitted to Morrowind bodies or new body types are introduced.

The landscaping of Skywind is quite the paradigm shift from Morrowind. There are a lot of Skyrim assets used so would require additional work to make them custom, otherwise I'm sure you'll run into the same problems of legality of using assets made for one game but being used in another. I'm confused actually what have you guys found about copyright laws around using assets from multiple games with your engine?

The Skywind team are thinking about rebranding the team to something like "TES Renewal Project"

If things are made specifically for OpenMW say in Orge3d format then we could have a project name like "TES Renewal OpenMW", which is a nice symbiosis of both projects. Its a separate installation. Admittedly, just like most people who are starting up Morrowind again use MGSO3, 99% of gamers would probably install it by default.

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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by Chris » 15 Jan 2014, 00:34

Nymunariya wrote:Unpopular opnion time: what´s wrong with Vanilla Morrowind graphics? (okay, I know I use high res textures, but vanilla still looks good)
I find vanilla's models and animations to be rather horrid. The Better Bodies/Clothes mods do help some, but Morrowind actually has some fundamental problems in the NPC skeleton that causes poorly-shaped bodies... and that can't be fixed without redoing everything (the animations need to be redone for different proportions, and the body/clothes/armor meshes need to be reweighted). Also, the heads and hairs are really static, and the replacers suffer from photo-itis and anime-hair.
And speaking of physics data, what annoyed me the most about Oblivion, was how you bump into a table and everything, that´s so nicely placed on top, falls off (and I had the unfortunate pleasure of having extreamly loud soundeffects when that happened).

I like Morrowind physics ... the only thing I wouldn´t mind seeing being done is a system that doesn´t punish mages.
Personally, I like that things could be bumped around. It makes things like explosive spells feel more impactful with how things reacted to them, and not act as if they were boulders glued in place. Traps become more interesting. You could also drag bodies around, which has a lot of potential for stealth gameplay.

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raevol
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by raevol » 15 Jan 2014, 00:50

Chris wrote:... Morrowind actually has some fundamental problems in the NPC skeleton that causes poorly-shaped bodies... and that can't be fixed without redoing everything (the animations need to be redone for different proportions, and the body/clothes/armor meshes need to be reweighted). Also, the heads and hairs are really static, and the replacers suffer from photo-itis and anime-hair.
This is one of the first post-1.0 things I would like to see improved... If OpenMW can support its own model and animation system alongside support for the original assets, so that assets can get a true upgrade, that'd be awesome. I imagine it'll be tricky to have a new asset in a new format be a replacement for a vanilla asset in a vanilla format... but I am not a technical person so maybe not.
Chris wrote:Personally, I like that things could be bumped around. It makes things like explosive spells feel more impactful with how things reacted to them, and not act as if they were boulders glued in place. Traps become more interesting. You could also drag bodies around, which has a lot of potential for stealth gameplay.
I also like when high-force events mess things up, looks awesome and adds a lot of the immersion. However, I do agree with Nymunariya that it's annoying to just be walking through a house and leave a wake of destruction behind you because you are WASDing a character collision shape, instead of moving through the real world here bumping your hip into a table hard enough to upset everything on it would actually hurt and is something you've trained yourself out of since you were a toddler.

SquireNed
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by SquireNed » 15 Jan 2014, 13:30

The catch to this sort of physics, however, is that it's not terribly cheap (though on modern systems it shouldn't be an issue), and it's also not super realistic. While there's something to be said for ragdoll physics, it's annoyingly overdone in Skyrim and even Oblivion. That said, something like NPC bump interaction could add a lot to OpenMW, though unless the animation already exists in-game it may be better as a mod than a core feature.

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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by Gez » 15 Jan 2014, 16:12

I wouldn't mind Havok physics if it was something that could be enabled or disabled on a per-cell basis. Dungeon or wilderness? Go hog wild, let shit fly! Towns and houses, though? Be quiet and leave things where they are.

As for Morrowind's vanilla assets -- personally, I'm fine with everything vanilla except armors, bodies and clothing. I'm not interested in MGSO because I feel it changes stuff that doesn't really need changing; but I wish all the Better Bodies/Better Beasts/Better Clothing/Better Armor/Better Robes/etc. stuff were merged into a single, convenient package instead of having to hunt down two dozen different mods...

FreeLikeGNU
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by FreeLikeGNU » 02 Feb 2014, 01:57

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Skywind appears to be about bringing the game of Morrowind into Skyrim's game engine using many of Skyrims existing assets and game mechanics. While OpenMW is seems more about aiming to replace the existing Morrowind engine with something that is far more accessable accross hardware platforms and is able to be supported and enhanced by the community without Bethesda needing to support Morrowind further.

OpenMW already does alot to enhance over the original engine of Morrowind and could potentially be the beginning of an open source engine for Oblivion and beyond. That would be fantastic, particularly if you could load any of your favority TES games or total conversions with just one engine. Consider the possibilities of bringing the story of Arena or Daggerfall into the OpenMW engine even!

From what I understand Bethesda kinda frowns on merging the Bethesda authored artistic assets of their various games within an engine and releasing that to the public, but what you do in the privacy of your home is your business :D

That said, I am not speaking for any developers or the OpenMW team but this thread caught my eye.

SquireNed
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Re: Openmw and Skywind

Post by SquireNed » 02 Feb 2014, 07:02

As someone who is somewhat familiar with copyright law, the reason Bethesda doesn't want people merging assets is probably because they signed a license that they'd only use the assets in a certain game when they got their textures (assuming they didn't get them as a WMFH made by an employee; the reasons why this wouldn't be the case are beside me).

Skywind doesn't really need new assets all that much because Dragonborn (if the player has it) does a decent enough job of providing several basic Morrowind-esque architectural features and textures to the game, though I'm not entirely sold on recreating a whole continent with just the stuff for Solstheim.

As far as engine rebuilds go, OpenMW and DaggerXL (http://xlengine.com/) provide a second breath for Bethesda games (though Daggerfall runs well enough-for Daggerfall-in DOSBox).

From a legal perspective, these engine reconstructions are actually very different than moving between games. Copyright really protects the spirit or essence of the work, the human experience of it, and as such the actual functionality doesn't change. From a copyright law perspective, OpenMW is Morrowind in so much as it offers the same experience. Since its main goal is compatibility and some minor improvements (plus some optional improvements down the road), there's no copyright issue with it (just as there's no copyright issue with, say, hardware emulation). It would be very, very, very difficult or nigh impossible from a legal perspective for Bethesda to shut down OpenMW. They could make things very hard for the project, but it would be petty and vindictive and incur legal fees that they probably don't care to face, especially considering that OpenMW might actually garner more Morrowind sales (heck, after it's finished they could even bundle OpenMW into the standard Morrowind distribution on Steam and call it cross-platform compatible, given that OpenMW's code is GPL'ed). Mind you, the case that I'd use to argue this to the Bethesda legal team is that Sony case with the VCR's, which does not establish a precedent to protect the sort of things that OpenMW resembles (actually, you could make a clever defense around it, but there are better things, such as pointing out that clauses in the DMCA explicitly allow certain "illegal" things for "archival" and "compatibility" purposes, which indicates that the fundamental role of copyright law is to protect the sale of works, rather than prevent other people from accessing it).

Lengthy late-night ranting aside, one important point to address: What you do in the privacy of your home is your business, except in copyright law. In copyright law they will hunt you down and slap you with a lawsuit regarding many thousands of dollars. OpenMW just happens to be in very comfortable, relatively well-charted, legal territory (as is, say, ReactOS).

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